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so

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i am your co-host nathan and i'm here

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with my other co-host exo academia xo

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how's it going

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it's going great uh had a great time on

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our first episode looking forward to

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digging in deeper on episode two

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absolutely yeah we were incredibly

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pleased with the response to episode one

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uh in fact i myself when we finished it

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i just couldn't wait to have the second

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conversation so i'm glad we're finally

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here able to do this but exo uh what

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were some of your reactions to uh some

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of the feedback that we got and uh

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overall how did you feel about that

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first episode

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yeah it's great because you know you and

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i just enjoy talking about this stuff it

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feels

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talk to about this and process thoughts

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and bounce ideas off of each other we do

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that naturally already

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so to be able to find that that

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resonates with people was uh really

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great that's really compelling that that

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shows that these things are interesting

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to a lot of people

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um and yeah it was it was pretty

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mind-blowing uh how positive the

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response was

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you know i had a sense that shifting

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from just doing point of convergence

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where it's more of like a

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an essay that i kind of present with

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ideas and making this more of a

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conversation and while you and i always

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block out a few things we're going to

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talk about it just quickly follows and

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falls into you know a back and forth and

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a real dialogue and i think people have

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felt like they're right there with us in

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the room and it's been compelling and

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resonating for them

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yeah absolutely the flow is key here and

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uh i think we've had a very strong flow

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from the very beginning well let's jump

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right into the episode today and we're

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going to talk about so in episode 1 we

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really took kind of a

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big picture view and examined uh some of

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the things that we wanted to try to

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accomplish with liminal frames uh and

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talk about our own sort of journeys but

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in episode two we're actually going to

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bring that down uh to a very specific

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place and examine the extraterrestrial

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hypothesis so we're going to spend some

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time talking about that on the show

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and exploring uh what resonates

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with each of us in that hypothesis what

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doesn't and as well as some other

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landscapes that that hypothesis i think

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opens up within the topic of the

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phenomenon so exo if you want to kick it

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off for us um what what are your kind of

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thoughts about

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this eth you know what's compelling to

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you

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first started getting into the

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phenomenon or did you come across it

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later in your journey

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right well what's interesting about the

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eth i think with any of these uh

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hypotheses that we're going to discuss

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actually

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is that they're they're always bound

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within a cultural context right so

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it's not like someone just reached into

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a bag and pulled one out and said hey

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how about this this idea

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no you sort of have this

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evolving notion of what is the final

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frontier in every culture right so this

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whole idea of the wild west became a big

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meme for american culture right

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um when the europeans came over you know

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populated the east and slowly the wild

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terrain of the west got tamed over time

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that's sort of the

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the mentality right that becomes a

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a meme

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well in the same way

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uh once we had you know

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human beings were on every continent on

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the earth and

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um we felt like we had a good

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understanding of

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place when it comes to the to our world

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um then the next logical extension of

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what the final frontier was was outer

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space and so

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you know and that

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culminated to some degree during the

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cold war with the race to get to to

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space and get to the moon and all that

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kind of stuff and

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sort of this sort of ego you know egoic

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kind of push to like be the first one

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there put a flag in the on the moon

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surface kind of thing

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so all so

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when we think about the others and this

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idea of a non-human intelligence

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interacting with us

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um

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from the get-go people's first

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inclination is going to be if it's not

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from here then the only other option

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outside is for the spiritual domain but

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when it looks like it's manifesting as a

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technological device specifically with

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the early ufo settings

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and it looks like it's technology

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that's too advanced for human

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civilization at the time the logical

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conclusion is these are

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you know these are from outer space and

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not and and at the time it's not just

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outer space like you know alpha centauri

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it's alpha centauri it's like these are

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martians or venetians right like we we

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go next door right we think well the

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world has a bunch of intelligent that's

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alright but you know what i mean

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intelligent creatures so why wouldn't

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mars and venus and you know saturn and

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jupiter so all this thing we didn't

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really understand yet how unique the

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earth was in terms of the other planets

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of our of our solar system

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so the assumption is oh the martians are

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here right even to the point where

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you know you have you can have a radio

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play

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about martians attacking and people

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suddenly panic and wonder if this is

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really going on because it's already

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in the expectation of the culture right

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that there's that that idea has already

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been seated in the culture in the

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background of our minds so that's the

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first thing i would say about the eth is

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you can't

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think about this historically without

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realizing where we were as a culture and

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what our sense of this what the final

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frontier was

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um and then when you know starting with

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kenneth arnold and and whatnot sort of

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the dawn of the you know the first

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flying saucer era right

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that's when that term was was first

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coined

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when you see these things flying in

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formation that look like physical

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objects right now the whole orb thing

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kind of came later or at least the

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discussion of it did even though

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apparently even kenneth arnold

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apparently had interactions with orbs

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after that which is fascinating in

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itself

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but at the time all that was talked

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about was okay these are physical

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technological objects therefore the

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logical assumption is these are coming

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from outer space what are your what are

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your thoughts on that yeah it's funny

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you started out exactly with where my

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mind went to it and that is that the uh

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the world views that we inherit and that

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you can look at through our history

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uh very much

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lended to the easy adoption of the

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extraterrestrial hypothesis it's a it's

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a it's a natural stepping stone from

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uh our sort of history as

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uh folks that were you know pretty

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tribal and then lived in states and then

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lived uh you know on continents and then

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you know empires and as those empires

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expanded

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you know there are new frontiers that we

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arrive at

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and so it's it's not too hard to then

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take that jump once we

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confirm in our consensus reality that

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we're on a planet that is in the solar

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system that there may also be other

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things on other planets

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in our solar system so

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i think it's a very natural progression

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of a theory when we're talking about the

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phenomenon itself uh

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you know but what's interesting to me

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about that as well is that it's very

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it's very attractive it's not only that

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it's uh naturally compelling but it's

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also kind of very romantic and so and

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when i talk about when i talk about that

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let's talk a little bit about kind of

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the

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uh

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the way in which our

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our culture and our science fiction in

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particular have kind of

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uh elevated this concept to a very

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romantic notion of kind of uh you know i

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think here of star trek or star wars you

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know very popular kinds of things where

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you have uh entities from other planets

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in other solar systems other galaxies

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and they're interacting with each other

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but they're you know interestingly

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enough they're interacting in a very you

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know sort of human structure right where

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they have uh ships of their own we have

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ships there's a governance you know

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there's there are common laws that are

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in place the the atmospheres all seem to

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be pretty much similarly breathable you

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know so it's a very easy way i think to

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uh to think about this and and there's

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something to

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the comfort of the idea itself

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that lends to its

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its popularity right so it's it's not

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too hard of a leap for anyone to go

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there and that makes it attractive and

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also helps it to spread as a pretty

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common hypothesis

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you know so for me it's definitely

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something that in my own history with

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not just like

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an intense interest in the phenomenon

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but just as a person in growing up in

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20th century and 21st century uh america

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you know it was a very kind of

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compelling attractive fun in a way a

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hypothesis and a way to think about our

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place in relationship to the vast

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universe i don't know if you had some

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sort of similar feelings about it as

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well

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just kind of from a cultural standpoint

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yeah and i think you made a really good

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point about

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uh the sense of weakness that

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expands into greater circles but also

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the sense of otherness right how we

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define otherness like you said that

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we go from sort of families to tribes to

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nation states to uh you know sort of

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global packs kind of thing you know with

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a couple different adversarial sides

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eventually you get more of a globalist

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kind of perspective

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and then the natural inclination after

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that is that the only otherness left is

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out there right and then you add to that

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that we all as children look up at the

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night sky and see this great expanse and

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and we try and wrap our heads around how

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far away those stars are and that

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actually we're seeing a snapshot of a

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star from like a million years ago

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because it's taking that long for the

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light to get here and wrapping your head

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around like seeing

281
00:10:17,110 --> 00:10:15,760
an example of general relativity right

282
00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:17,120
in front of you right in front of your

283
00:10:22,630 --> 00:10:19,440
eyes in real time is so bizarre

284
00:10:23,829 --> 00:10:22,640
and um and like you said too when we

285
00:10:26,550 --> 00:10:23,839
started

286
00:10:28,150 --> 00:10:26,560
imagining what those others were like uh

287
00:10:29,269 --> 00:10:28,160
you have on the on the one hand you have

288
00:10:31,030 --> 00:10:29,279
something like star trek which you

289
00:10:32,550 --> 00:10:31,040
brought up which is kind of more of a

290
00:10:35,030 --> 00:10:32,560
positive mentality of like the

291
00:10:37,030 --> 00:10:35,040
scientific expedition not going to

292
00:10:39,350 --> 00:10:37,040
plunder other places but to go and

293
00:10:40,630 --> 00:10:39,360
explore and to greet and to meet new

294
00:10:42,790 --> 00:10:40,640
beings and

295
00:10:44,790 --> 00:10:42,800
um and the prime directive right like

296
00:10:46,949 --> 00:10:44,800
don't interfere with that culture just

297
00:10:50,389 --> 00:10:46,959
go and observe it's a very positive kind

298
00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:50,399
of scientific progressive kind of view

299
00:10:54,949 --> 00:10:52,880
and like you say the irony is that star

300
00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:54,959
trek would often use

301
00:10:58,710 --> 00:10:56,399
certain

302
00:11:01,110 --> 00:10:58,720
disruptions or conflicts going on in

303
00:11:02,949 --> 00:11:01,120
human culture and then reflect that in

304
00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:02,959
what was happening in some alien culture

305
00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:05,120
right so really we were discussing our

306
00:11:08,069 --> 00:11:06,160
own

307
00:11:10,069 --> 00:11:08,079
societies kind of wrestling with

308
00:11:11,509 --> 00:11:10,079
different issues and then projecting it

309
00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:11,519
onto that which there's a lot of that

310
00:11:15,269 --> 00:11:13,600
that's the key is the projecting right

311
00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:15,279
so that's the sort of more positive view

312
00:11:19,190 --> 00:11:17,200
which like as you pointed out it's still

313
00:11:22,310 --> 00:11:19,200
very much projecting a human psychology

314
00:11:23,910 --> 00:11:22,320
onto these aliens most of the time

315
00:11:26,069 --> 00:11:23,920
but then you have like the independence

316
00:11:29,190 --> 00:11:26,079
day kind of you know other side

317
00:11:32,389 --> 00:11:29,200
hollywood side where these others are

318
00:11:33,750 --> 00:11:32,399
coming to plunder us right so and and

319
00:11:36,230 --> 00:11:33,760
we're seen as kind of like an

320
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:36,240
inconvenient uh you know obstacle to

321
00:11:38,470 --> 00:11:36,959
them

322
00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:38,480
getting resources or taking over the

323
00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:41,040
planet they they prefer palm trees to

324
00:11:43,750 --> 00:11:42,640
desert sand or something

325
00:11:45,829 --> 00:11:43,760
um

326
00:11:48,389 --> 00:11:45,839
and so that's been drilled into our head

327
00:11:50,470 --> 00:11:48,399
too over and over again you can't be

328
00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:50,480
raised in western civilization and not

329
00:11:53,590 --> 00:11:52,480
be aware of all these backdrops of

330
00:11:56,550 --> 00:11:53,600
movies

331
00:11:59,190 --> 00:11:56,560
that depict these others as kind of

332
00:12:01,509 --> 00:11:59,200
plundering invaders you know

333
00:12:02,790 --> 00:12:01,519
who see us as enemies and that's very

334
00:12:04,550 --> 00:12:02,800
much again

335
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:04,560
kind of maybe some to some degree our

336
00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:05,920
repressed

337
00:12:09,670 --> 00:12:07,760
guilt around the fact that maybe as

338
00:12:11,350 --> 00:12:09,680
european societies we went and plundered

339
00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:11,360
other you know continents so we sort of

340
00:12:14,790 --> 00:12:13,600
project that onto them again

341
00:12:15,590 --> 00:12:14,800
um

342
00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:15,600
so

343
00:12:20,949 --> 00:12:18,000
when people do start hearing about the

344
00:12:23,350 --> 00:12:20,959
possibility of ufos and aliens in the

345
00:12:26,069 --> 00:12:23,360
real world they inevitably have these

346
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:26,079
some subconscious associations rise up

347
00:12:31,269 --> 00:12:28,399
right and to some degree fear sometimes

348
00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:31,279
rises up now maybe if they saw star trek

349
00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:32,880
more often they have more of a positive

350
00:12:36,310 --> 00:12:34,480
view but if they saw independence day

351
00:12:38,470 --> 00:12:36,320
they go oh man we we how are we going to

352
00:12:40,629 --> 00:12:38,480
deal with these guys and if there is

353
00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:40,639
evidence as there seems to be

354
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:42,399
that they they show some degree of

355
00:12:46,550 --> 00:12:44,399
technical technological sophistication

356
00:12:48,470 --> 00:12:46,560
beyond us then we get really nervous

357
00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:48,480
because we don't think we can you know

358
00:12:52,550 --> 00:12:50,560
win that dog fight kind of thing that's

359
00:12:54,389 --> 00:12:52,560
right so all of that is part of the

360
00:12:55,430 --> 00:12:54,399
cultural stew

361
00:12:56,629 --> 00:12:55,440
yeah

362
00:13:00,150 --> 00:12:56,639
you know as you were talking it made me

363
00:13:01,910 --> 00:13:00,160
think as well how that hypothesis

364
00:13:03,750 --> 00:13:01,920
probably helped push our science to a

365
00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:03,760
certain degree because when you when you

366
00:13:07,509 --> 00:13:05,440
talk about the

367
00:13:08,949 --> 00:13:07,519
the vast distances that are at play at

368
00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:08,959
the universe

369
00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:10,480
one of the sort of

370
00:13:14,949 --> 00:13:12,560
benefits of this hypothesis is that it

371
00:13:16,470 --> 00:13:14,959
really serves as a

372
00:13:22,550 --> 00:13:16,480
a

373
00:13:24,150 --> 00:13:22,560
you know

374
00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:24,160
qualities quantities that we cannot

375
00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:27,760
really comprehend so by personalizing it

376
00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:29,600
and kind of anthropomorphizing other

377
00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:32,320
beings uh just like us on other planets

378
00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:34,720
and other universes it it it shrinks

379
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:37,040
those distances down to something that

380
00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:39,120
you know might be plausible

381
00:13:42,150 --> 00:13:40,800
we could actually maybe interact well

382
00:13:44,069 --> 00:13:42,160
how would we do that it doesn't seem

383
00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:44,079
like it's achievable via the physics

384
00:13:47,189 --> 00:13:45,440
that we

385
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:47,199
have discovered

386
00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:49,040
and so therefore there must be other

387
00:13:54,790 --> 00:13:52,000
physics yet to be discovered to help us

388
00:13:57,030 --> 00:13:54,800
bridge that divide and so that drives

389
00:13:59,110 --> 00:13:57,040
our scientific discovery to places that

390
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:59,120
it may not have otherwise gone and that

391
00:14:03,430 --> 00:14:00,720
that's an interesting byproduct because

392
00:14:04,470 --> 00:14:03,440
it's just an idea it's not even

393
00:14:06,230 --> 00:14:04,480
you know it

394
00:14:08,629 --> 00:14:06,240
arguably it's not necessarily something

395
00:14:10,949 --> 00:14:08,639
that we have all agreed to as a real

396
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:10,959
thing it is is an idea that many of us

397
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:12,480
find compelling

398
00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:14,480
but most of us don't spend and say most

399
00:14:19,189 --> 00:14:16,560
of us most of us on the earth don't

400
00:14:21,910 --> 00:14:19,199
spend a ton of time thinking about it

401
00:14:23,750 --> 00:14:21,920
but it is the power of the idea itself

402
00:14:27,750 --> 00:14:23,760
that i think

403
00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:28,949
leads us

404
00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:31,360
onto new pathways

405
00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:34,240
that we really weren't planning to tread

406
00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:35,120
at all

407
00:14:38,550 --> 00:14:37,120
you know so it's it's funny how these

408
00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:38,560
things kind of

409
00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:40,160
start out as

410
00:14:44,790 --> 00:14:42,320
i think easy conclusions

411
00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:44,800
but they end up opening up doors to a

412
00:14:49,509 --> 00:14:46,480
whole bunch of other

413
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:49,519
areas and aspects that weren't initially

414
00:14:53,189 --> 00:14:50,800
present to us

415
00:14:55,509 --> 00:14:53,199
um but you know i also wanted to comment

416
00:14:57,350 --> 00:14:55,519
on the fact that you did talk about the

417
00:14:58,389 --> 00:14:57,360
you know kind of the negative aspects of

418
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:58,399
it

419
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:59,440
and uh

420
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:01,199
you know it's funny how both the

421
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:03,760
positive and the negative are very

422
00:15:07,269 --> 00:15:05,440
compelling in their own right you know

423
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:07,279
so they they each kind of

424
00:15:13,110 --> 00:15:10,240
serve as a as catalyst for change but

425
00:15:14,470 --> 00:15:13,120
just change of a different order

426
00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:14,480
the in the

427
00:15:19,189 --> 00:15:16,880
positive environments ironically

428
00:15:20,550 --> 00:15:19,199
the human cultures can be a little bit

429
00:15:23,189 --> 00:15:20,560
more

430
00:15:26,790 --> 00:15:23,199
divisive because we don't necessarily

431
00:15:29,030 --> 00:15:26,800
have to be united as a front to combat

432
00:15:31,110 --> 00:15:29,040
you know these threatening beings

433
00:15:33,749 --> 00:15:31,120
but in the threatening paradigm we

434
00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:33,759
actually have to be united as a planet

435
00:15:38,069 --> 00:15:35,680
in order to beat back against the

436
00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:38,079
threatening other alien you know so it's

437
00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:40,560
a funny like on the on the peaceful side

438
00:15:45,189 --> 00:15:42,560
it actually allows us to be a little bit

439
00:15:48,470 --> 00:15:45,199
more confrontational

440
00:15:50,710 --> 00:15:48,480
with you know interspecies but on the

441
00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:50,720
danger side it allows us to

442
00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:53,120
rise together and unite as one to

443
00:15:57,910 --> 00:15:55,199
overcome this extreme obstacle

444
00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:57,920
yeah and ironically historically uh you

445
00:16:01,509 --> 00:15:59,440
know there was a speech that ronald

446
00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:01,519
reagan gave sort of at the height of the

447
00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:03,360
cold war not at the hype but you know

448
00:16:07,829 --> 00:16:05,920
still when the cold war was plenty hot

449
00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:07,839
um where he said that very thing that

450
00:16:12,230 --> 00:16:09,680
ironically the one thing that we would

451
00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:12,240
unite the world uh even in the midst of

452
00:16:15,430 --> 00:16:13,440
a cold war

453
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:15,440
and the potential for

454
00:16:18,870 --> 00:16:17,440
destroying ourselves you know mutually

455
00:16:20,629 --> 00:16:18,880
assured destruction because of all the

456
00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:20,639
nuclear weapons pointed at each other

457
00:16:24,389 --> 00:16:23,040
the one thing that would override that

458
00:16:26,550 --> 00:16:24,399
paradigm

459
00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:26,560
and change the narrative enough to us to

460
00:16:31,269 --> 00:16:28,880
completely change our approach would be

461
00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:31,279
an extraterrestrial threat you know and

462
00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:32,639
then of course there's been all sorts of

463
00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:34,720
uh you know speculation since then was

464
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:35,600
he

465
00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:37,680
hinting at something really going on or

466
00:16:41,430 --> 00:16:39,600
is he just speaking a hypothetical but

467
00:16:43,189 --> 00:16:41,440
right even if it was just a hypothetical

468
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:43,199
it's a point well taken

469
00:16:47,269 --> 00:16:45,040
absolutely and i also wanted to comment

470
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:47,279
too on what you said about sure how

471
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:49,440
we've expended expanded the boundaries

472
00:16:52,470 --> 00:16:51,759
too so like i said in the you know in

473
00:17:06,230 --> 00:16:52,480
the

474
00:17:08,710 --> 00:17:06,240
in our solar system

475
00:17:11,189 --> 00:17:08,720
like you said that pushes our technology

476
00:17:13,029 --> 00:17:11,199
and we have to then dream up ways of

477
00:17:15,909 --> 00:17:13,039
you know how do we get to the next solar

478
00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:15,919
system when suddenly the distances are

479
00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:17,520
so vast that you're talking about either

480
00:17:20,549 --> 00:17:18,480
taking

481
00:17:23,110 --> 00:17:20,559
many many generations to get there or

482
00:17:24,789 --> 00:17:23,120
you have to completely reinvent the way

483
00:17:27,429 --> 00:17:24,799
that travel works you know and

484
00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:27,439
completely reinvent paradigms

485
00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:29,200
and then even something like

486
00:17:32,549 --> 00:17:31,360
seti you know many people would argue

487
00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:32,559
that

488
00:17:38,789 --> 00:17:36,720
ourselves or detect other civilizations

489
00:17:41,350 --> 00:17:38,799
with radio signals and whatnot

490
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:41,360
is kind of preposterous and hilarious

491
00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:42,640
because it's

492
00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:45,280
speaking again of cultural frames it was

493
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:48,080
born at a time when we thought radio

494
00:17:51,669 --> 00:17:50,000
signals were the bomb you know like

495
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:51,679
that's the way that that was cutting

496
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:53,039
edge for us at the time and so we

497
00:17:56,470 --> 00:17:54,880
thought yeah radio signals

498
00:17:58,950 --> 00:17:56,480
we'll look for their radio signals and

499
00:18:01,590 --> 00:17:58,960
then within a decade or two even that

500
00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:01,600
short a time frame we realized no wait a

501
00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:04,000
second any civilization beyond but what

502
00:18:10,150 --> 00:18:06,720
was the 1960s or 70s to us is going to

503
00:18:12,150 --> 00:18:10,160
be well beyond radio signals and that's

504
00:18:14,390 --> 00:18:12,160
not a great way to try and pick up these

505
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:14,400
other you know these others so it's

506
00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:16,160
interesting how it has pushed our

507
00:18:20,549 --> 00:18:18,720
technology and how sometimes we're so

508
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:20,559
you know short-sighted in terms of how

509
00:18:25,029 --> 00:18:22,480
we think about how these others would

510
00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:25,039
show up or how we would even detect them

511
00:18:29,669 --> 00:18:27,840
yeah for sure and what uh

512
00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:29,679
you know we've spoken i think a good bit

513
00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:32,160
on the sort of general contours of the

514
00:18:35,669 --> 00:18:33,200
theory

515
00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:35,679
but you know i know on your own podcast

516
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:37,440
you've spent some time looking at some

517
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:39,760
specific cases that have

518
00:18:43,750 --> 00:18:42,000
tended to uh trend toward that

519
00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:43,760
hypothesis so are there are there any

520
00:18:47,909 --> 00:18:46,320
cases that come to mind for you

521
00:18:49,909 --> 00:18:47,919
that

522
00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:49,919
really read on the surface

523
00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:52,160
as extraterrestrial hypothesis and

524
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:54,320
hypothesis and what is compelling about

525
00:18:57,270 --> 00:18:55,520
that

526
00:18:59,909 --> 00:18:57,280
you mean cases where i really do believe

527
00:19:02,549 --> 00:18:59,919
eth is the best fit where where either

528
00:19:04,870 --> 00:19:02,559
you do or those who who hear of that

529
00:19:06,950 --> 00:19:04,880
case come away thinking that's the

530
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:06,960
easiest and best conclusion to take away

531
00:19:09,909 --> 00:19:08,160
from

532
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:09,919
right that's a good question and and i

533
00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:10,799
guess

534
00:19:15,029 --> 00:19:12,400
i don't usually think about it in those

535
00:19:16,870 --> 00:19:15,039
terms what i what i tend to think about

536
00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:16,880
is that

537
00:19:22,310 --> 00:19:20,320
logically there's no reason why et's

538
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:22,320
couldn't have been here by now like when

539
00:19:27,029 --> 00:19:24,720
i think about the age of the universe

540
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:27,039
um and how there are some civilizations

541
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:29,600
that could be millions of years hundreds

542
00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:31,440
of millions you know years older than

543
00:19:34,710 --> 00:19:32,799
than ours

544
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:34,720
to the point where as arthur c clarke

545
00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:37,200
pointed out you know any sufficiently

546
00:19:41,669 --> 00:19:38,880
sophisticated technology is going to

547
00:19:44,710 --> 00:19:41,679
appear like magic indistinguishable to

548
00:19:45,590 --> 00:19:44,720
me from magic to a lesser civilization

549
00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:45,600
so

550
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:47,600
it all of these things that to us seem

551
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:49,520
like big deals like oh how do you get

552
00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:51,840
past those interstellar distances

553
00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:53,600
they're so vast right

554
00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:55,600
and and i i think it's and i've used

555
00:20:01,029 --> 00:19:58,480
this term i think it's hilarious when

556
00:20:03,029 --> 00:20:01,039
in you know the 2020s now

557
00:20:04,710 --> 00:20:03,039
we go well yeah i just don't think it's

558
00:20:07,350 --> 00:20:04,720
likely because the distances are just

559
00:20:11,190 --> 00:20:07,360
too vast and again we make that same

560
00:20:14,870 --> 00:20:11,200
radio signal mistake right we say for us

561
00:20:17,669 --> 00:20:14,880
right now in this snapshot of 2022

562
00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:17,679
we can't overcome that at least in the

563
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:20,400
next decade or so so we project that

564
00:20:23,909 --> 00:20:22,559
onto every civilization that might exist

565
00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:23,919
that even might be

566
00:20:28,710 --> 00:20:26,240
you know hundreds of millions of years

567
00:20:31,029 --> 00:20:28,720
older than ours and we think about

568
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:31,039
how we've gone from a horse and buggy to

569
00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:33,440
spacecraft that have now you know probes

570
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:35,520
that have left our solar system or not

571
00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:37,600
yeah our solar system now

572
00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:40,000
in a space of like 150 years or

573
00:20:44,149 --> 00:20:42,000
something i mean that's such a tiny

574
00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:44,159
snapshot and that we're we have enough

575
00:20:47,909 --> 00:20:46,320
hubris to assume that

576
00:20:48,870 --> 00:20:47,919
no other civilization will have been

577
00:20:49,990 --> 00:20:48,880
able to

578
00:20:52,630 --> 00:20:50,000
conquer

579
00:20:54,390 --> 00:20:52,640
you know the the vastness of space yet

580
00:20:56,549 --> 00:20:54,400
even when we know things like wormholes

581
00:20:58,230 --> 00:20:56,559
exist at least theoretically and there's

582
00:20:59,990 --> 00:20:58,240
even discussions now about how you would

583
00:21:02,870 --> 00:21:00,000
harness that and try and hold them open

584
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:02,880
long enough and stabilize them so

585
00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:04,559
so i think about it more in those terms

586
00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:07,360
i go there's no reason why they wouldn't

587
00:21:12,070 --> 00:21:09,280
potentially have come here

588
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:12,080
i think that we are definitely not

589
00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:13,760
secretive about our existence on the

590
00:21:17,510 --> 00:21:15,520
earth we have all sorts of ways that we

591
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:17,520
are broadcasting ourselves not just

592
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:19,360
deliberately but i mean even just you

593
00:21:23,430 --> 00:21:21,840
know just with our technology

594
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:23,440
you think about how many you know how

595
00:21:27,669 --> 00:21:25,440
much space junk there is orbiting our

596
00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:27,679
planet now you know um

597
00:21:30,870 --> 00:21:28,799
so

598
00:21:33,190 --> 00:21:30,880
it would not be difficult

599
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:33,200
for a more advanced species to detect

600
00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:35,520
that we are here and if they have the

601
00:21:38,789 --> 00:21:36,960
same spirit of you know kind of

602
00:21:40,310 --> 00:21:38,799
curiosity that we have

603
00:21:42,789 --> 00:21:40,320
it would not be a stretch to imagine

604
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:42,799
they've come here so

605
00:21:47,590 --> 00:21:44,480
so there are some cases that i don't see

606
00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:47,600
why they couldn't be eth um

607
00:21:51,350 --> 00:21:50,159
and i think as a general rule it makes

608
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:51,360
sense that

609
00:21:54,549 --> 00:21:52,799
they could be in the picture and so that

610
00:21:56,310 --> 00:21:54,559
that tends to be my my response to all

611
00:21:58,549 --> 00:21:56,320
these different hypotheses

612
00:22:00,710 --> 00:21:58,559
i very rarely say absolute no to any of

613
00:22:02,549 --> 00:22:00,720
them because if it's reasonable that it

614
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:02,559
could be in the picture i often think it

615
00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:04,720
is and when

616
00:22:08,549 --> 00:22:07,039
we don't know the parameters of how old

617
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:08,559
these civilizations might be i mean

618
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:11,600
conceivably they could be much much

619
00:22:15,350 --> 00:22:14,080
much older in fact they could be so old

620
00:22:16,950 --> 00:22:15,360
and so much more advanced that they

621
00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:16,960
might have you know

622
00:22:20,070 --> 00:22:18,880
departed into some sort of hyperspace

623
00:22:21,909 --> 00:22:20,080
and that's why we don't pick them up

624
00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:21,919
right there's so many options

625
00:22:24,390 --> 00:22:22,720
um

626
00:22:26,070 --> 00:22:24,400
and they might be observing us and

627
00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:26,080
interacting with us from some higher

628
00:22:30,070 --> 00:22:27,520
dimensional plane that's like a

629
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:30,080
hyperspace but they're still ets you

630
00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:31,200
know what i mean like in terms of their

631
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:34,080
original origin so that's where it gets

632
00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:35,520
complicated

633
00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:37,440
so do i think

634
00:22:41,190 --> 00:22:39,120
to some degree that

635
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:41,200
extraterrestrial others in some way are

636
00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:42,960
in the picture yes i just think it gets

637
00:22:46,789 --> 00:22:44,720
complicated when you try and

638
00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:46,799
sort that all out what do you think

639
00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:48,640
no absolutely uh

640
00:22:54,549 --> 00:22:50,960
you know i think that um there are some

641
00:22:57,190 --> 00:22:54,559
stories in in ufology that when you're

642
00:22:59,590 --> 00:22:57,200
new to the topic

643
00:23:01,190 --> 00:22:59,600
read on the surface level very much as

644
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:01,200
extraterrestrial

645
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:03,360
hypothesis stories you know i mean

646
00:23:07,990 --> 00:23:06,240
roswell perfect example right right um

647
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:08,000
happened in the late 40s you know

648
00:23:12,870 --> 00:23:10,720
supposedly a crashed uh craft and bodies

649
00:23:15,590 --> 00:23:12,880
that were retrieved and the easiest

650
00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:15,600
conclusion at the time and even looking

651
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:17,280
back is to say

652
00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:18,960
yeah that's just uh you know some

653
00:23:23,190 --> 00:23:21,200
intergalactic kind of taurus that just

654
00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:23,200
happened to had to have a bad day and

655
00:23:28,549 --> 00:23:25,760
crashed in in new mexico so you know

656
00:23:30,549 --> 00:23:28,559
that is uh i think kind of a very easy

657
00:23:32,549 --> 00:23:30,559
conclusion surface level way to read

658
00:23:35,669 --> 00:23:32,559
that um and there are many others like

659
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:35,679
that story that that read on the surface

660
00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:39,120
as a is an extraterrestrial hypothesis

661
00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:41,440
uh you know the other thing about

662
00:23:45,029 --> 00:23:43,600
the way that stories are read and i you

663
00:23:46,870 --> 00:23:45,039
know i struggle with this quite a bit

664
00:23:48,149 --> 00:23:46,880
myself in in the

665
00:23:50,789 --> 00:23:48,159
in the time that i've spent with the

666
00:23:53,350 --> 00:23:50,799
topic is that you can go through so many

667
00:23:54,549 --> 00:23:53,360
different landscapes and theories about

668
00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:54,559
what it is

669
00:23:58,070 --> 00:23:56,400
that oftentimes i kind of find myself

670
00:24:00,390 --> 00:23:58,080
going all right

671
00:24:02,390 --> 00:24:00,400
what is the simpler explanation you know

672
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:02,400
i've i've kind of been able to spin out

673
00:24:07,110 --> 00:24:04,960
a bunch of complex explanations and and

674
00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:07,120
in a way we're attracted to the even

675
00:24:11,350 --> 00:24:09,520
more complex theories because it's like

676
00:24:13,190 --> 00:24:11,360
ah that's kind of a

677
00:24:14,950 --> 00:24:13,200
it really lights the brain on fire there

678
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:14,960
that's something i hadn't considered and

679
00:24:19,590 --> 00:24:16,720
so it's uh you know it's new and it's

680
00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:19,600
novel i'm going to pursue that new track

681
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:21,840
and discard this other stuff but

682
00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:23,760
oftentimes the novel theories that we

683
00:24:29,269 --> 00:24:27,200
entertain are far more complex and so

684
00:24:30,950 --> 00:24:29,279
you know to use the old adage of keep it

685
00:24:32,870 --> 00:24:30,960
simple stupid i tend to go back and go

686
00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:32,880
well maybe what if it is just

687
00:24:36,870 --> 00:24:34,960
what if it is just eth what if it's just

688
00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:36,880
extraterrestrial and we've kind of

689
00:24:42,149 --> 00:24:39,600
layered on to that all these other

690
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:42,159
sort of theories that may not fit

691
00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:45,760
that simple uh interpretation and so you

692
00:24:48,789 --> 00:24:46,960
know it's uh

693
00:24:51,269 --> 00:24:48,799
you know i never i know it's never that

694
00:24:53,510 --> 00:24:51,279
easy i kind of wish that it were because

695
00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:53,520
it's very elegant and it's just

696
00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:55,440
you know again it kind of touching back

697
00:24:59,350 --> 00:24:56,880
to what we talked about earlier it's

698
00:25:02,070 --> 00:24:59,360
very it has this romantic idea we could

699
00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:02,080
have a relationship with the beings that

700
00:25:05,110 --> 00:25:03,200
would be

701
00:25:07,669 --> 00:25:05,120
similar to relationships that we enter

702
00:25:09,590 --> 00:25:07,679
into in human culture and we could forge

703
00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:09,600
you know we could trade we could learn

704
00:25:12,950 --> 00:25:11,440
things you know it would be this really

705
00:25:15,269 --> 00:25:12,960
exciting new

706
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:15,279
way for us to expand our our

707
00:25:20,230 --> 00:25:17,600
civilization and our science and our

708
00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:20,240
awareness of our place in the universe

709
00:25:25,029 --> 00:25:22,400
but at the same time

710
00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:25,039
i think the more that you look at it the

711
00:25:29,029 --> 00:25:27,600
more you realize you know it just

712
00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:29,039
the simplicity

713
00:25:33,830 --> 00:25:29,760
it

714
00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:33,840
else there and we probably do need to

715
00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:36,000
give credence to some of the other

716
00:25:40,630 --> 00:25:39,120
theories that are floating around

717
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:40,640
yeah and it's interesting even when you

718
00:25:44,870 --> 00:25:42,799
brought up the example of of roswell i

719
00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:44,880
agree with you that on on on the face of

720
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:47,760
it it's easy to to conclude this looks

721
00:25:51,430 --> 00:25:49,840
like you know et's who have traveled

722
00:25:53,669 --> 00:25:51,440
here and like you said they had a bad

723
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:53,679
day but then one of the first arguments

724
00:25:56,870 --> 00:25:55,120
that came up was

725
00:25:58,870 --> 00:25:56,880
okay so you're telling me

726
00:25:59,909 --> 00:25:58,880
they've managed to you know travel

727
00:26:02,630 --> 00:25:59,919
across

728
00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:02,640
vast solar systems intergalactic travel

729
00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:05,360
potentially and then they crash in the

730
00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:06,480
desert like

731
00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:07,600
they don't know how to handle the

732
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:09,200
atmosphere of our planet like that that

733
00:26:13,029 --> 00:26:11,039
feels like a stretch to people which

734
00:26:15,110 --> 00:26:13,039
then then sort of like breeds these

735
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:15,120
whole notions like this

736
00:26:19,269 --> 00:26:17,600
deep-seated like secret psychological

737
00:26:20,789 --> 00:26:19,279
ploy like maybe it's a

738
00:26:23,190 --> 00:26:20,799
they're trying to give us some sort of

739
00:26:24,870 --> 00:26:23,200
coded message in crashing right which on

740
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:24,880
the one hand i understand that point of

741
00:26:28,070 --> 00:26:26,640
view right

742
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:28,080
and then you you have like you brought

743
00:26:32,549 --> 00:26:29,840
up roswell and you you have the whole

744
00:26:34,149 --> 00:26:32,559
thing you know with trinity and the book

745
00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:34,159
by valet and

746
00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:36,720
harris where you know it's so closely

747
00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:39,520
tied to the atomic bomb detonation and a

748
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:41,600
major change in the

749
00:26:45,110 --> 00:26:43,600
the the sort of the fabric of human

750
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:45,120
society and

751
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:47,039
adversarial relationships amongst

752
00:26:50,789 --> 00:26:49,039
different civilizations that that makes

753
00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:50,799
people wonder wow that's weird how that

754
00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:52,320
happened at the same time what's that

755
00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:53,840
about

756
00:26:57,669 --> 00:26:55,760
you know the big increase around the

757
00:26:59,669 --> 00:26:57,679
dawn of the atomic age is just really

758
00:27:01,190 --> 00:26:59,679
interesting whatever conclusion you come

759
00:27:03,269 --> 00:27:01,200
to it's something you have to wrestle

760
00:27:05,350 --> 00:27:03,279
with at least but it is interesting how

761
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:05,360
even in those cases that look

762
00:27:08,789 --> 00:27:07,840
cut and dried like yeah eths should fit

763
00:27:12,870 --> 00:27:08,799
there

764
00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:12,880
these extra bits of data that don't seem

765
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:14,320
to fit you know like for instance i

766
00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:16,480
brought up the kenneth arnold piece yeah

767
00:27:20,230 --> 00:27:18,000
and i think this only come up came up

768
00:27:21,909 --> 00:27:20,240
recently i certainly only became aware

769
00:27:25,029 --> 00:27:21,919
of it more recently

770
00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:25,039
that this guy who saw you know in oregon

771
00:27:29,909 --> 00:27:27,520
saw these these uh you know

772
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:29,919
saucers flying in formation

773
00:27:35,110 --> 00:27:31,760
um

774
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:35,120
later in that week apparently saw orbs

775
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:37,600
in his hallway you know so

776
00:27:40,789 --> 00:27:38,880
this is

777
00:27:42,230 --> 00:27:40,799
what leads us to the next part of the

778
00:27:43,669 --> 00:27:42,240
conversation

779
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:43,679
that

780
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:46,559
so many of the cases involved elements

781
00:27:50,310 --> 00:27:48,559
of high strangeness right and this is

782
00:27:52,070 --> 00:27:50,320
what people like valet

783
00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:52,080
and heinek who were the original

784
00:27:57,510 --> 00:27:54,960
proponents of the egh right when

785
00:27:59,510 --> 00:27:57,520
when vallej was young and

786
00:28:02,389 --> 00:27:59,520
was working uh you know

787
00:28:05,269 --> 00:28:02,399
tracking satellites and whatnot in space

788
00:28:07,110 --> 00:28:05,279
working for an astronomical outfit in

789
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:07,120
france i think it was

790
00:28:10,870 --> 00:28:09,440
and he observed some weird anomalies and

791
00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:10,880
he tried to bring it to the attention of

792
00:28:13,110 --> 00:28:12,080
the director

793
00:28:14,789 --> 00:28:13,120
and

794
00:28:16,470 --> 00:28:14,799
the guy basically said let's get rid of

795
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:16,480
those tapes like they just didn't want

796
00:28:21,430 --> 00:28:19,279
to and that first shocked valet into

797
00:28:22,789 --> 00:28:21,440
this notion that wait a second you mean

798
00:28:24,870 --> 00:28:22,799
we're seeing stuff that we can't account

799
00:28:26,310 --> 00:28:24,880
for and we're actually not just not

800
00:28:28,149 --> 00:28:26,320
paying attention but we're potentially

801
00:28:30,630 --> 00:28:28,159
covering it up why is that happening

802
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:30,640
what's this about you know so he really

803
00:28:35,350 --> 00:28:32,880
began to go okay sure looks like he

804
00:28:36,389 --> 00:28:35,360
looks like ets to me i mean

805
00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:36,399
that

806
00:28:39,269 --> 00:28:37,919
doesn't fall within the parameters of

807
00:28:41,190 --> 00:28:39,279
something we would have up there so it

808
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:41,200
must be ets right so

809
00:28:45,590 --> 00:28:43,279
he started looking into it turned into

810
00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:45,600
an obsession for him like so many of us

811
00:28:50,630 --> 00:28:47,600
and when he partnered with jl and

812
00:28:52,549 --> 00:28:50,640
heineck for a period of his career

813
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:52,559
and then later on even independently

814
00:28:56,149 --> 00:28:54,480
they both came to the conclusion that

815
00:28:57,430 --> 00:28:56,159
there was so much high strangeness

816
00:29:00,310 --> 00:28:57,440
involved

817
00:29:03,669 --> 00:29:00,320
that perhaps the eth wasn't the best way

818
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,679
to make sense of of all the data

819
00:29:07,909 --> 00:29:05,760
and they were they were the leading you

820
00:29:09,750 --> 00:29:07,919
know investigators researchers of their

821
00:29:11,909 --> 00:29:09,760
time they they were the ones that were

822
00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:11,919
going to this to the actual sites of the

823
00:29:14,710 --> 00:29:13,840
sightings and the interactions right

824
00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:14,720
because

825
00:29:18,789 --> 00:29:16,640
now we get into the whole thing about

826
00:29:21,029 --> 00:29:18,799
how human beings were contacted and

827
00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:21,039
affected by these interactions whether

828
00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:22,880
it's just by something they saw or an

829
00:29:25,510 --> 00:29:24,240
interaction with

830
00:29:27,750 --> 00:29:25,520
what appears to be non-human

831
00:29:31,110 --> 00:29:27,760
intelligence and how they were changed

832
00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:31,120
people like hanik and valet were on site

833
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:32,640
they you know

834
00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:36,960
they looked at radiation burns they they

835
00:29:39,430 --> 00:29:38,000
looked at

836
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:39,440
manifestations in the physical

837
00:29:45,510 --> 00:29:42,320
environment and just as importantly they

838
00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:45,520
interviewed at length the the the

839
00:29:50,470 --> 00:29:48,159
contactees the experiencers the people

840
00:29:53,110 --> 00:29:50,480
who observed these things

841
00:29:56,710 --> 00:29:53,120
and noticed profound and lasting changes

842
00:29:58,710 --> 00:29:56,720
in them that again seem to go beyond uh

843
00:30:01,830 --> 00:29:58,720
or at least it made more complicated if

844
00:30:04,230 --> 00:30:01,840
these are ets what how is it impacting

845
00:30:07,029 --> 00:30:04,240
these people in these ways and the ways

846
00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:07,039
that these craft would sort of pop in

847
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:08,720
and pop out of our reality it's not like

848
00:30:11,590 --> 00:30:09,840
they were like

849
00:30:13,590 --> 00:30:11,600
you know oh look we're tracking it's

850
00:30:15,029 --> 00:30:13,600
just past mars now and here it comes now

851
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:15,039
it's coming in at this trajectory it's

852
00:30:17,029 --> 00:30:16,000
coming in it's going to come over

853
00:30:18,630 --> 00:30:17,039
greenland

854
00:30:20,389 --> 00:30:18,640
it's not like that right like they just

855
00:30:23,590 --> 00:30:20,399
would pop in

856
00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:23,600
um you know to our reality like like

857
00:30:26,470 --> 00:30:25,200
jumping from one frame to another just

858
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:26,480
suddenly they're there and just as

859
00:30:30,470 --> 00:30:28,720
easily they pop out so all of these

860
00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:30,480
elements together

861
00:30:34,310 --> 00:30:32,799
led these you know world-renowned

862
00:30:36,149 --> 00:30:34,320
researchers who at the top of their

863
00:30:38,789 --> 00:30:36,159
field to say wait a second as much as we

864
00:30:41,590 --> 00:30:38,799
were proponents that these were this is

865
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:41,600
a simple case of ets coming from other

866
00:30:45,750 --> 00:30:42,880
parts of the

867
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:45,760
galaxy or beyond that doesn't seem to

868
00:30:49,269 --> 00:30:47,600
fit and the last thing i'll just point

869
00:30:52,149 --> 00:30:49,279
out too is that

870
00:30:53,750 --> 00:30:52,159
part of the hubris too in if you try and

871
00:30:55,990 --> 00:30:53,760
take sort of a really

872
00:30:57,509 --> 00:30:56,000
traditional view of the eth is that it

873
00:30:59,909 --> 00:30:57,519
assumes that even if they're

874
00:31:01,509 --> 00:30:59,919
sophisticated enough to get here that

875
00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:01,519
their fundamental relationship with

876
00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:04,080
space time hasn't changed and that's a

877
00:31:09,110 --> 00:31:07,200
lot to to to swallow that

878
00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:09,120
if they're potentially millions of years

879
00:31:12,870 --> 00:31:10,640
hundreds of millions of years billions

880
00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:12,880
of years ahead of us

881
00:31:16,389 --> 00:31:14,880
surely their very fundamental

882
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:16,399
relationship with space time would be

883
00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:18,720
very different so again like i was

884
00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:21,039
saying before they could still be ets in

885
00:31:24,149 --> 00:31:23,200
the pure sense of the world word meaning

886
00:31:27,669 --> 00:31:24,159
they're

887
00:31:29,909 --> 00:31:27,679
beyond the earth even within a physical

888
00:31:31,909 --> 00:31:29,919
plane but how they get here what their

889
00:31:34,470 --> 00:31:31,919
relationship to space time is all of

890
00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:34,480
that suddenly uh be asked some much

891
00:31:39,509 --> 00:31:35,760
bigger questions

892
00:31:41,830 --> 00:31:39,519
absolutely yeah and the fact that those

893
00:31:43,669 --> 00:31:41,840
researchers who spent so much time

894
00:31:45,190 --> 00:31:43,679
immersed in the topic

895
00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:45,200
uh you know it's not like one day they

896
00:31:48,710 --> 00:31:46,640
just kind of woke up and said you know

897
00:31:51,190 --> 00:31:48,720
we're bored with this uh

898
00:31:53,590 --> 00:31:51,200
idea let's just uh let's just spin out

899
00:31:55,509 --> 00:31:53,600
some new fancy theories and and say you

900
00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:55,519
know it's that's what we should look at

901
00:31:59,509 --> 00:31:57,840
next i think we needed to take it very

902
00:32:01,590 --> 00:31:59,519
seriously that the data that they spent

903
00:32:03,750 --> 00:32:01,600
so much time pouring over and trying to

904
00:32:06,389 --> 00:32:03,760
make sense of compelled them

905
00:32:09,190 --> 00:32:06,399
to entertain new hypotheses and so

906
00:32:10,149 --> 00:32:09,200
that that really allows us to turn to

907
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:10,159
what

908
00:32:15,110 --> 00:32:12,640
some of those other hypotheses

909
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:15,120
might be and you know i think this it's

910
00:32:18,789 --> 00:32:17,279
interesting as we turn to this because

911
00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:18,799
we

912
00:32:26,549 --> 00:32:21,600
where

913
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:26,559
peering peeling back some of the layers

914
00:32:31,269 --> 00:32:29,279
of of our understanding of our reality

915
00:32:33,669 --> 00:32:31,279
in ways that introduce

916
00:32:35,269 --> 00:32:33,679
sort of new models new conceptions of

917
00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:35,279
what might be going on

918
00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:37,600
and one of those sort of conceptions

919
00:32:43,750 --> 00:32:41,279
that that has brought forth a new theory

920
00:32:46,149 --> 00:32:43,760
is the interdimensional hypothesis so

921
00:32:48,470 --> 00:32:46,159
i'm not thinking of the world that you

922
00:32:50,710 --> 00:32:48,480
and i inhabit as just the the only kind

923
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:50,720
of plane that there is but that there

924
00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:52,159
are other

925
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:54,240
lower and higher dimensions of reality

926
00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:55,679
that exist

927
00:32:59,669 --> 00:32:58,080
where life could be present and just

928
00:33:02,389 --> 00:32:59,679
because we are not

929
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:02,399
beings that inhabit those dimensions or

930
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:04,559
or perceive them maybe the better word

931
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:06,720
doesn't mean that they don't exist you

932
00:33:09,590 --> 00:33:07,919
know and as i thought about the

933
00:33:11,590 --> 00:33:09,600
interdimensional hypothesis earlier

934
00:33:13,269 --> 00:33:11,600
today it's um

935
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:13,279
it's funny too that we

936
00:33:17,430 --> 00:33:15,760
we have a very sort of anthropocentric

937
00:33:19,909 --> 00:33:17,440
notion about

938
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:19,919
life in the universe you know we with

939
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:21,200
the fermi paradox we get quite

940
00:33:24,070 --> 00:33:22,640
frustrated you know it doesn't make any

941
00:33:26,470 --> 00:33:24,080
sense where is the life because we

942
00:33:28,630 --> 00:33:26,480
presume that life

943
00:33:30,230 --> 00:33:28,640
in the universe will look like life as

944
00:33:32,310 --> 00:33:30,240
we understand it

945
00:33:34,789 --> 00:33:32,320
it could actually be that the life that

946
00:33:36,789 --> 00:33:34,799
is here on the earth is actually the

947
00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:36,799
rarity like that life

948
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:39,360
is abundant in the universe but exists

949
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:41,440
in ways that are nothing like the life

950
00:33:44,710 --> 00:33:42,880
that we understand

951
00:33:47,110 --> 00:33:44,720
and so you know that could present

952
00:33:48,310 --> 00:33:47,120
itself in a whole sort of multitude of

953
00:33:50,630 --> 00:33:48,320
ways but

954
00:33:52,389 --> 00:33:50,640
with the interdimensional hypothesis you

955
00:33:54,149 --> 00:33:52,399
know the fact that you as you mentioned

956
00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:54,159
kind of craft that kind of blip in and

957
00:33:58,630 --> 00:33:55,840
out of our reality of our perceived

958
00:34:01,590 --> 00:33:58,640
reality that i think led them down some

959
00:34:03,269 --> 00:34:01,600
that path to entertain that that notion

960
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:03,279
what's compelling to you about the

961
00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:05,440
interdimensional way of looking at this

962
00:34:08,230 --> 00:34:06,720
issue

963
00:34:10,310 --> 00:34:08,240
right well the first thing i would want

964
00:34:11,109 --> 00:34:10,320
to point out and you kind of hints at it

965
00:34:13,030 --> 00:34:11,119
there

966
00:34:15,190 --> 00:34:13,040
going back to what we began with in this

967
00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:15,200
conversation saying that

968
00:34:19,669 --> 00:34:17,520
you know cultural templates and the

969
00:34:21,349 --> 00:34:19,679
cultural context kind of set the table

970
00:34:24,069 --> 00:34:21,359
for the possibilities

971
00:34:26,149 --> 00:34:24,079
like you said it was as things like as

972
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:26,159
notions like the multiverse

973
00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:29,440
were proposed by physics right when

974
00:34:33,990 --> 00:34:31,440
people looking at a model of reality

975
00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:34,000
said wait a second uh you know it may be

976
00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:36,000
that there's like you you pointed out

977
00:34:40,710 --> 00:34:38,800
multiple parallel realities existing

978
00:34:43,349 --> 00:34:40,720
right alongside of each other

979
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:43,359
separated by the the thinnest membranes

980
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:45,200
and yet they they might as well be the

981
00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:47,440
other ends of the of the cosmos because

982
00:34:50,069 --> 00:34:49,200
they feel far away from us we don't know

983
00:34:52,230 --> 00:34:50,079
yet

984
00:34:55,030 --> 00:34:52,240
how to interact with them right

985
00:34:58,150 --> 00:34:55,040
but it's not about spatial distance it's

986
00:34:59,430 --> 00:34:58,160
more of a a frequency or a dimensional

987
00:35:02,870 --> 00:34:59,440
difference right and so that's when we

988
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:02,880
come with these terms like dimensions um

989
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:04,560
and

990
00:35:11,190 --> 00:35:08,480
in terms of

991
00:35:13,670 --> 00:35:11,200
what's compelling to me about it

992
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:13,680
one thing i would say is that

993
00:35:16,790 --> 00:35:15,280
there are there are the observations

994
00:35:18,550 --> 00:35:16,800
like how they blip in and blip out like

995
00:35:21,190 --> 00:35:18,560
you said that seems to

996
00:35:22,710 --> 00:35:21,200
hint at something like that possibility

997
00:35:24,710 --> 00:35:22,720
combine that with the fact that we now

998
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:24,720
expect that there could very well be

999
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:29,040
parallel earths and parallel universes

1000
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:32,240
and then also you you tie in how

1001
00:35:36,630 --> 00:35:34,560
so many of the beings encountered as

1002
00:35:38,790 --> 00:35:36,640
well as the the the technology on

1003
00:35:41,430 --> 00:35:38,800
display with the craft

1004
00:35:44,310 --> 00:35:41,440
kind of look like next next-gen human

1005
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:44,320
craft you know and the beings often look

1006
00:35:49,109 --> 00:35:46,880
either humanoid or you know at least

1007
00:35:51,109 --> 00:35:49,119
bipedal right they they don't often come

1008
00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:51,119
out and crawl out like octopi you know

1009
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:52,800
what i mean like they they look

1010
00:35:56,069 --> 00:35:54,800
bipedal they look kind of like something

1011
00:35:58,790 --> 00:35:56,079
like the creatures you'd see in star

1012
00:36:00,630 --> 00:35:58,800
trek right or at the bar in star wars

1013
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:00,640
so

1014
00:36:08,069 --> 00:36:06,800
either they're really good at hiding you

1015
00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:08,079
know and that's where you come with some

1016
00:36:11,190 --> 00:36:10,079
of the the crypto terrestrial kind of

1017
00:36:13,990 --> 00:36:11,200
notion that what if they're living in

1018
00:36:15,670 --> 00:36:14,000
the cabins caverns of the earth or they

1019
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:15,680
uh you know are living in the oceans or

1020
00:36:21,109 --> 00:36:18,400
whatever but if if we haven't just

1021
00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:21,119
missed them in our physical reality then

1022
00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:23,440
perhaps they're right next door but in a

1023
00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:25,040
different dimension

1024
00:36:29,510 --> 00:36:26,880
and perhaps have followed a different

1025
00:36:31,030 --> 00:36:29,520
evolutionary traject trajectory but they

1026
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:31,040
still have some of the same basic

1027
00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:32,400
ingredients that they are connected to

1028
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:34,240
the earth in some way even if the

1029
00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:36,640
evolutionary trends shifted at some

1030
00:36:41,589 --> 00:36:39,200
point that that explains why they look

1031
00:36:44,390 --> 00:36:41,599
so much like either like us or like

1032
00:36:46,069 --> 00:36:44,400
beings that seem to have evolved in an

1033
00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:46,079
environment so similar to the earth

1034
00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:48,560
because again if they when you look at

1035
00:36:52,630 --> 00:36:51,200
creatures that have certain

1036
00:36:54,069 --> 00:36:52,640
physiology

1037
00:36:55,829 --> 00:36:54,079
it's according to our understanding of

1038
00:36:57,190 --> 00:36:55,839
evolution it's because

1039
00:37:00,550 --> 00:36:57,200
life

1040
00:37:02,310 --> 00:37:00,560
develops responses to enable survival

1041
00:37:05,190 --> 00:37:02,320
right so it's better suited for the

1042
00:37:07,109 --> 00:37:05,200
environment it evolves within so

1043
00:37:09,349 --> 00:37:07,119
you'd have to either posit that they

1044
00:37:11,589 --> 00:37:09,359
just happen to come from planets in some

1045
00:37:13,270 --> 00:37:11,599
far-flung star system that are awfully

1046
00:37:15,109 --> 00:37:13,280
like the earth

1047
00:37:17,190 --> 00:37:15,119
and when you start and even what we know

1048
00:37:18,230 --> 00:37:17,200
now about all the exoplanets that exist

1049
00:37:19,430 --> 00:37:18,240
out there

1050
00:37:22,630 --> 00:37:19,440
there are

1051
00:37:24,150 --> 00:37:22,640
but that is definitely the minority the

1052
00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:24,160
vast majority are not like that you know

1053
00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:26,240
whether they're gas giants or whatever

1054
00:37:29,829 --> 00:37:28,320
that that if life were to evolve in any

1055
00:37:31,750 --> 00:37:29,839
of those other planets

1056
00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:31,760
it wouldn't look anything like us you

1057
00:37:35,430 --> 00:37:33,200
know um

1058
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:35,440
and so when you look at the fact that

1059
00:37:40,390 --> 00:37:37,440
they seem to look

1060
00:37:41,910 --> 00:37:40,400
often humanoid or bipedal or whatever or

1061
00:37:44,069 --> 00:37:41,920
you know they would have respiratory

1062
00:37:45,750 --> 00:37:44,079
systems similar to an oxygenated planet

1063
00:37:48,069 --> 00:37:45,760
those kind of things

1064
00:37:49,910 --> 00:37:48,079
then you start saying okay so when we

1065
00:37:51,510 --> 00:37:49,920
combine all these elements maybe

1066
00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:51,520
interdimensional makes sense it makes

1067
00:37:54,470 --> 00:37:52,880
sense in how they're coming in how

1068
00:37:55,829 --> 00:37:54,480
they're going out it makes sense how

1069
00:37:57,990 --> 00:37:55,839
they seem to have connections to the

1070
00:37:59,430 --> 00:37:58,000
earth and yet we don't see them here

1071
00:38:01,750 --> 00:37:59,440
i think all those things become

1072
00:38:03,349 --> 00:38:01,760
compelling about that hypothesis

1073
00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:03,359
yeah for sure

1074
00:38:06,790 --> 00:38:05,040
also their ability to kind of be

1075
00:38:08,550 --> 00:38:06,800
anywhere at any time it's not just they

1076
00:38:11,190 --> 00:38:08,560
can pop in and out of our atmosphere but

1077
00:38:13,349 --> 00:38:11,200
they seem to just so easily show up

1078
00:38:14,550 --> 00:38:13,359
at any place they could and and also

1079
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:14,560
move through

1080
00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:16,560
the the physical environments that you

1081
00:38:19,829 --> 00:38:18,160
and i inhabit there are plenty of

1082
00:38:21,750 --> 00:38:19,839
accounts where

1083
00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:21,760
these beings these others can move

1084
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:22,560
through

1085
00:38:29,430 --> 00:38:25,119
walls you know do things that our bodies

1086
00:38:31,030 --> 00:38:29,440
cannot do and seemingly cannot do and so

1087
00:38:33,349 --> 00:38:31,040
it's a it's not too hard of a jump to

1088
00:38:36,390 --> 00:38:33,359
them and say well this is just uh this

1089
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:36,400
is how we perceive them uh you know

1090
00:38:39,910 --> 00:38:37,680
to us it looks like they're passing

1091
00:38:42,150 --> 00:38:39,920
through the wall but because they occupy

1092
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:42,160
a higher dimensional space

1093
00:38:45,910 --> 00:38:43,680
you know what they really look like is

1094
00:38:48,950 --> 00:38:45,920
something else and when they just

1095
00:38:50,790 --> 00:38:48,960
intersect with our perception of of our

1096
00:38:52,790 --> 00:38:50,800
3d 4d space

1097
00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:52,800
that's how it shows up for us so i think

1098
00:38:57,430 --> 00:38:55,359
it you know it does help it does become

1099
00:38:59,829 --> 00:38:57,440
you can see how it becomes a better fit

1100
00:39:02,550 --> 00:38:59,839
hypothesis in many ways than the

1101
00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:02,560
original extraterrestrial hypothesis it

1102
00:39:07,190 --> 00:39:04,240
builds upon that

1103
00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:07,200
idea but then adds to it again we've

1104
00:39:12,230 --> 00:39:09,920
touched on this before but it adds to it

1105
00:39:13,430 --> 00:39:12,240
aspects of our understanding of the

1106
00:39:15,750 --> 00:39:13,440
universe

1107
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:15,760
as that understanding expands

1108
00:39:20,870 --> 00:39:17,920
as we build on our science it

1109
00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:20,880
incorporates those new understandings

1110
00:39:25,109 --> 00:39:21,680
and

1111
00:39:27,270 --> 00:39:25,119
ultimately serves as a better fit model

1112
00:39:29,430 --> 00:39:27,280
than the extraterrestrial hypothesis

1113
00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:29,440
does at the start and i think that

1114
00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:31,040
overall that's a concept that i think

1115
00:39:34,230 --> 00:39:32,640
you and i we've talked about a bunch

1116
00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:34,240
we're going to come back to this quite

1117
00:39:38,470 --> 00:39:36,400
frequently that that whatever model that

1118
00:39:43,030 --> 00:39:38,480
we end up landing on

1119
00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:43,040
the model needs to do a good job of

1120
00:39:48,790 --> 00:39:45,599
fitting the majority if not all of what

1121
00:39:51,750 --> 00:39:48,800
is accounted for in in the experiences

1122
00:39:54,230 --> 00:39:51,760
and so this one certainly seems to be a

1123
00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:54,240
better more inclusive

1124
00:40:00,870 --> 00:39:58,160
conclusion than than than the prior one

1125
00:40:03,190 --> 00:40:00,880
that's very true um i also think though

1126
00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:03,200
that that part of this comes down to

1127
00:40:06,950 --> 00:40:05,280
again speaking of cultural expectations

1128
00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:06,960
and cultural templates and

1129
00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:09,440
cultural contexts

1130
00:40:13,270 --> 00:40:10,480
i think

1131
00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:13,280
it's easy to run into confirmation bias

1132
00:40:16,950 --> 00:40:14,480
where you

1133
00:40:18,790 --> 00:40:16,960
you find what you expect to find because

1134
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:18,800
uh you know you happen to be looking for

1135
00:40:22,630 --> 00:40:19,920
it so

1136
00:40:23,349 --> 00:40:22,640
the same way that the eth seemed you

1137
00:40:25,190 --> 00:40:23,359
know

1138
00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:25,200
very um

1139
00:40:28,870 --> 00:40:26,960
you know intuitive it seemed like the

1140
00:40:31,270 --> 00:40:28,880
obvious response the

1141
00:40:33,349 --> 00:40:31,280
you know slowly even now uh the general

1142
00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:33,359
public is still catching up with the idh

1143
00:40:36,710 --> 00:40:34,560
and that'll be an interesting thing for

1144
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:36,720
us to talk about in a second is

1145
00:40:40,069 --> 00:40:38,400
the difference between those of us who

1146
00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:40,079
are obsessed with this topic where we're

1147
00:40:43,270 --> 00:40:41,440
at with it versus what the general

1148
00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:43,280
public is ready to hear

1149
00:40:48,950 --> 00:40:46,240
and where congress is and all that but

1150
00:40:50,470 --> 00:40:48,960
i mean again in the early 20th century

1151
00:40:53,109 --> 00:40:50,480
middle 20th century

1152
00:40:55,670 --> 00:40:53,119
even into like the 70s or so

1153
00:40:57,829 --> 00:40:55,680
the eth just seemed obvious it wasn't

1154
00:40:59,910 --> 00:40:57,839
even really a discussion at that point

1155
00:41:01,990 --> 00:40:59,920
right it's like there was no notion

1156
00:41:03,670 --> 00:41:02,000
yet in popular popular culture even in

1157
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:03,680
ufology really about

1158
00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:05,440
many worlds hypothesis and the

1159
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:06,640
multiverse

1160
00:41:10,710 --> 00:41:08,560
so it just seemed obvious and like you

1161
00:41:12,870 --> 00:41:10,720
said because of the the sheer expanse of

1162
00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:12,880
space and how many planets there are and

1163
00:41:16,230 --> 00:41:14,079
that's one of the really interesting

1164
00:41:18,309 --> 00:41:16,240
things in the midst of this

1165
00:41:19,750 --> 00:41:18,319
shift towards the interdimensional at

1166
00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:19,760
the same time

1167
00:41:24,470 --> 00:41:22,319
we have become more and more aware of

1168
00:41:26,950 --> 00:41:24,480
how many planets there are

1169
00:41:29,270 --> 00:41:26,960
even you know those goldilocks zone

1170
00:41:31,510 --> 00:41:29,280
planets that supposedly could host life

1171
00:41:33,270 --> 00:41:31,520
even as we do like you uh pointed out

1172
00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:33,280
already kind of have a prejudice towards

1173
00:41:37,190 --> 00:41:35,520
a certain kind of life but even when you

1174
00:41:39,349 --> 00:41:37,200
take into account that prejudice there

1175
00:41:42,309 --> 00:41:39,359
should be plenty of planets with the you

1176
00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:42,319
know dizzying array myriad planets

1177
00:41:46,829 --> 00:41:44,880
across the vastness of space and that's

1178
00:41:49,990 --> 00:41:46,839
just the known universe

1179
00:41:52,550 --> 00:41:50,000
there's many many many millions that you

1180
00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:52,560
know could could could fit life even as

1181
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:55,040
we sort of narrowly define it so that

1182
00:41:58,870 --> 00:41:57,040
that is interesting in itself and again

1183
00:42:01,270 --> 00:41:58,880
that's why i don't

1184
00:42:03,589 --> 00:42:01,280
i don't reject the eth at all and when i

1185
00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:03,599
look at that and i i i laugh at the

1186
00:42:07,109 --> 00:42:05,440
notion that they couldn't figure out how

1187
00:42:09,430 --> 00:42:07,119
to get here i think that would be

1188
00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:09,440
a cakewalk eventually right right for us

1189
00:42:12,870 --> 00:42:10,960
it'll be a cakewalk within a couple

1190
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:12,880
hundred years if not less

1191
00:42:15,990 --> 00:42:14,480
so give me a million years i'm pretty

1192
00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:16,000
confident they can they can they can

1193
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:17,280
figure that out

1194
00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:19,680
so that's why the eth i don't dismiss

1195
00:42:23,270 --> 00:42:21,280
when you look at

1196
00:42:24,710 --> 00:42:23,280
again just it's important for us to

1197
00:42:25,829 --> 00:42:24,720
point this out when you just look at the

1198
00:42:28,309 --> 00:42:25,839
numbers

1199
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:28,319
like how many planets there are

1200
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:29,520
orbiting

1201
00:42:33,829 --> 00:42:32,160
again we live in a fairly average place

1202
00:42:36,309 --> 00:42:33,839
that's the point right like we went from

1203
00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:36,319
sort of the age where the church ruled

1204
00:42:39,670 --> 00:42:37,920
the world and

1205
00:42:41,990 --> 00:42:39,680
uh humans thought of themselves as the

1206
00:42:42,870 --> 00:42:42,000
center of the universe right

1207
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:42,880
now

1208
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:46,880
mainstream sciences perspective is that

1209
00:42:52,069 --> 00:42:49,520
we're a pretty average place right that

1210
00:42:54,309 --> 00:42:52,079
we are an average planet

1211
00:42:56,829 --> 00:42:54,319
uh in an average solar system in an

1212
00:42:59,430 --> 00:42:56,839
average galaxy and so when you look at

1213
00:43:02,069 --> 00:42:59,440
that and you look at just the sheer

1214
00:43:04,790 --> 00:43:02,079
vastness of space there's a lot of

1215
00:43:06,870 --> 00:43:04,800
places that should have life like if we

1216
00:43:08,710 --> 00:43:06,880
believe as we do

1217
00:43:11,109 --> 00:43:08,720
based on our current understanding that

1218
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:11,119
evolution will spring forth and and

1219
00:43:15,109 --> 00:43:12,800
evolve life

1220
00:43:18,069 --> 00:43:15,119
that even if it's fairly rare

1221
00:43:21,109 --> 00:43:18,079
even if it's extremely rare that like

1222
00:43:23,910 --> 00:43:21,119
intelligent sophisticated life survives

1223
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:23,920
again based on the numbers alone that

1224
00:43:28,630 --> 00:43:26,480
should equal plenty

1225
00:43:30,309 --> 00:43:28,640
of highly civilized you know

1226
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:30,319
civilizations

1227
00:43:33,589 --> 00:43:32,560
elsewhere in the cosmos in the physical

1228
00:43:35,589 --> 00:43:33,599
universe i'm not talking about in the

1229
00:43:37,270 --> 00:43:35,599
multiverse i'm saying just within our

1230
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:37,280
understanding of this physical universe

1231
00:43:40,390 --> 00:43:38,880
there should be plenty of room and

1232
00:43:42,390 --> 00:43:40,400
plenty of opportunity

1233
00:43:43,510 --> 00:43:42,400
for advanced civilizations to have

1234
00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:43,520
developed

1235
00:43:47,430 --> 00:43:46,000
uh so like you say that that

1236
00:43:48,950 --> 00:43:47,440
brings up the fermi paradox you know

1237
00:43:50,309 --> 00:43:48,960
that so where are they then you know and

1238
00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:50,319
why haven't they knocked on our door

1239
00:43:55,030 --> 00:43:52,880
kind of thing right um brought cookies

1240
00:43:57,270 --> 00:43:55,040
so um

1241
00:43:58,550 --> 00:43:57,280
all that is true and yet with the with

1242
00:44:03,030 --> 00:43:58,560
the

1243
00:44:05,349 --> 00:44:03,040
again what happens partly is

1244
00:44:07,589 --> 00:44:05,359
as our understanding of of the

1245
00:44:09,109 --> 00:44:07,599
complexity of the cosmos and the fabric

1246
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:09,119
of reality shifts

1247
00:44:12,309 --> 00:44:10,880
so too to our expectations so it's a

1248
00:44:14,309 --> 00:44:12,319
combination of

1249
00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:14,319
the bizarreness we notice

1250
00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:15,440
uh

1251
00:44:18,630 --> 00:44:16,640
but also

1252
00:44:21,270 --> 00:44:18,640
what we think the available options are

1253
00:44:22,870 --> 00:44:21,280
it's a big difference you know

1254
00:44:24,870 --> 00:44:22,880
but i would just like to point out again

1255
00:44:26,710 --> 00:44:24,880
that it could very well be an amalgam of

1256
00:44:28,470 --> 00:44:26,720
the two it doesn't it there's not this

1257
00:44:29,990 --> 00:44:28,480
hard line distinction between

1258
00:44:31,990 --> 00:44:30,000
sure are they

1259
00:44:33,829 --> 00:44:32,000
ultimately eth does that fit better or

1260
00:44:35,990 --> 00:44:33,839
does the idh fit better it could very

1261
00:44:38,309 --> 00:44:36,000
well be an amalgam of those two and it

1262
00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:38,319
may very well be that within you know a

1263
00:44:42,390 --> 00:44:40,720
couple of decades we stop even talking

1264
00:44:44,309 --> 00:44:42,400
about it in those terms because those

1265
00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:44,319
kind of collapse into some

1266
00:44:48,309 --> 00:44:46,720
larger meta category that make sense of

1267
00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:48,319
new realities we understand new

1268
00:44:53,030 --> 00:44:50,720
relationships with space time we develop

1269
00:44:55,190 --> 00:44:53,040
so all of this is inevitably embedded

1270
00:44:57,190 --> 00:44:55,200
within a cultural context

1271
00:44:58,790 --> 00:44:57,200
absolutely and and you know it's it's

1272
00:45:01,670 --> 00:44:58,800
hard not to see

1273
00:45:03,910 --> 00:45:01,680
how the new theories themselves

1274
00:45:05,990 --> 00:45:03,920
add to the menu of options that are

1275
00:45:07,670 --> 00:45:06,000
probably there you know a phrase that

1276
00:45:09,510 --> 00:45:07,680
you use quite frequently in point of

1277
00:45:11,910 --> 00:45:09,520
convergence is that the universe is

1278
00:45:14,309 --> 00:45:11,920
teeming with life probably and i think

1279
00:45:17,589 --> 00:45:14,319
it's easy to see why just be let's just

1280
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:17,599
take these two concepts so if we exist

1281
00:45:21,510 --> 00:45:19,440
on the earth and if we

1282
00:45:23,349 --> 00:45:21,520
posit that there could be you know these

1283
00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:23,359
interdimensional beings

1284
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:26,560
uh then right there you you already have

1285
00:45:31,109 --> 00:45:28,800
the eth and then in that in this example

1286
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:31,119
we're the extraterrestrials

1287
00:45:36,230 --> 00:45:33,680
and you have the interdimensional so

1288
00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:36,240
it's a it's an additive kind of process

1289
00:45:41,190 --> 00:45:39,280
uh where these theories just um the the

1290
00:45:44,870 --> 00:45:41,200
circles expand out

1291
00:45:46,950 --> 00:45:44,880
and and the manifestations of

1292
00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:46,960
of life and

1293
00:45:49,670 --> 00:45:48,640
sentience or whatever that exists in the

1294
00:45:51,589 --> 00:45:49,680
universe

1295
00:45:55,030 --> 00:45:51,599
they occupy these these sort of

1296
00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:55,040
expanding circular spaces and so as we

1297
00:46:01,190 --> 00:45:57,280
as we stumble across these new theories

1298
00:46:03,510 --> 00:46:01,200
it's it's um to me it it really does

1299
00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:03,520
it's hard not to be compelled to think

1300
00:46:09,589 --> 00:46:07,280
that there is an abundance of life

1301
00:46:11,750 --> 00:46:09,599
that exists in a in a panel plea you

1302
00:46:13,589 --> 00:46:11,760
know of ways you know that we can't even

1303
00:46:15,589 --> 00:46:13,599
conceive of and we're and we've just

1304
00:46:17,670 --> 00:46:15,599
gotten started you know we have just

1305
00:46:20,710 --> 00:46:17,680
gotten started thinking about

1306
00:46:22,390 --> 00:46:20,720
our place in this grander scheme and and

1307
00:46:25,270 --> 00:46:22,400
to come back to the word hubris it's

1308
00:46:26,790 --> 00:46:25,280
it's our the hubris is extreme for us to

1309
00:46:28,390 --> 00:46:26,800
think like well we've already kind of

1310
00:46:30,550 --> 00:46:28,400
cracked that code you know we've already

1311
00:46:33,510 --> 00:46:30,560
you know we've already figured this out

1312
00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:33,520
um i do think it's interesting how

1313
00:46:39,109 --> 00:46:35,440
you know we talk about culture

1314
00:46:41,589 --> 00:46:39,119
and this interplay between uh

1315
00:46:43,990 --> 00:46:41,599
culture and science and theories and and

1316
00:46:46,630 --> 00:46:44,000
our and our our sort of story how we

1317
00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:46,640
place ourselves uh in the world that we

1318
00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:49,359
find ourselves in uh in popular culture

1319
00:46:53,190 --> 00:46:51,200
in particular so we've talked about the

1320
00:46:55,670 --> 00:46:53,200
multiverse and it's it's interesting to

1321
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:55,680
me that the multiverse is is extremely

1322
00:46:59,750 --> 00:46:57,760
popular right now you know we've you

1323
00:47:01,829 --> 00:46:59,760
look at the marvel cinematic universe

1324
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:01,839
that is basically taking this concept

1325
00:47:05,589 --> 00:47:04,560
and has popularized it around the world

1326
00:47:07,109 --> 00:47:05,599
and it's

1327
00:47:09,030 --> 00:47:07,119
that's not something that just you know

1328
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:09,040
came out of nowhere obviously marvel had

1329
00:47:13,829 --> 00:47:10,800
posited this and been playing with this

1330
00:47:16,309 --> 00:47:13,839
idea for for decades in their comics but

1331
00:47:19,510 --> 00:47:16,319
it's it's new to a lot of people and so

1332
00:47:23,829 --> 00:47:21,990
existence of this idea the the kind of

1333
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:23,839
stepping forward of this idea onto the

1334
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:26,400
grander stage of our society

1335
00:47:31,030 --> 00:47:28,400
is opening up to us

1336
00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:31,040
uh the reality of of the theory itself

1337
00:47:35,030 --> 00:47:33,280
and then as is and and just in waiting

1338
00:47:36,790 --> 00:47:35,040
in the wings offstage

1339
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:36,800
you know we have yet other theories that

1340
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:38,720
are about to step forward

1341
00:47:42,030 --> 00:47:40,319
and so one of those is that we might

1342
00:47:44,790 --> 00:47:42,040
want to talk about a little bit is the

1343
00:47:46,150 --> 00:47:44,800
ultra-terrestrial hypothesis and i was

1344
00:47:48,309 --> 00:47:46,160
wondering if you could kind of unpack

1345
00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:48,319
what that means and you know why why is

1346
00:47:53,030 --> 00:47:51,599
that a compelling theory for some people

1347
00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:53,040
yeah that's an interesting one and

1348
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:54,720
there's a lot of overlap with the

1349
00:47:58,870 --> 00:47:57,520
interdimensional hypothesis here and

1350
00:47:59,910 --> 00:47:58,880
ultra-terrestrials are interesting

1351
00:48:02,069 --> 00:47:59,920
because

1352
00:48:04,790 --> 00:48:02,079
that term has been used a few different

1353
00:48:06,470 --> 00:48:04,800
times by some different key figures

1354
00:48:08,549 --> 00:48:06,480
um john keel talked about ultra

1355
00:48:10,390 --> 00:48:08,559
terrestrials i think originally

1356
00:48:11,270 --> 00:48:10,400
um hal put off has also talked about

1357
00:48:13,109 --> 00:48:11,280
them

1358
00:48:15,510 --> 00:48:13,119
but in kind of different ways

1359
00:48:17,670 --> 00:48:15,520
uh and mixed in with there is the the

1360
00:48:19,109 --> 00:48:17,680
crypto terrestrials that mac tony's

1361
00:48:21,670 --> 00:48:19,119
introduced which is kind of a play on

1362
00:48:22,790 --> 00:48:21,680
that as well

1363
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:22,800
the

1364
00:48:30,950 --> 00:48:27,200
in some ways is also

1365
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:30,960
an amalgam of the eth and the idh in

1366
00:48:34,630 --> 00:48:33,040
some ways

1367
00:48:36,630 --> 00:48:34,640
and taking in the multiverse idea and

1368
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:36,640
the many worlds idea because it's saying

1369
00:48:40,950 --> 00:48:39,760
that okay so maybe it's not an either or

1370
00:48:43,190 --> 00:48:40,960
maybe it's not they're either

1371
00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:43,200
terrestrial or they're extraterrestrial

1372
00:48:46,390 --> 00:48:45,440
maybe they're ultra-terrestrial meaning

1373
00:48:48,790 --> 00:48:46,400
that

1374
00:48:50,870 --> 00:48:48,800
they are here but not just here right

1375
00:48:53,430 --> 00:48:50,880
and and that why would there only be

1376
00:48:55,190 --> 00:48:53,440
those two options and and

1377
00:48:56,390 --> 00:48:55,200
again when we look at the history and

1378
00:48:59,430 --> 00:48:56,400
this will be interesting for us to get

1379
00:49:02,150 --> 00:48:59,440
into too is the the evidence that

1380
00:49:04,309 --> 00:49:02,160
stretching well back before the 1940s

1381
00:49:05,190 --> 00:49:04,319
and those initial saucer sightings

1382
00:49:07,030 --> 00:49:05,200
um

1383
00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:07,040
you know if they there seems to be

1384
00:49:11,750 --> 00:49:09,280
evidence of

1385
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:11,760
a humanoid kind of species that's that's

1386
00:49:17,190 --> 00:49:13,680
here and then not here

1387
00:49:19,510 --> 00:49:17,200
and and seems to sometimes show either a

1388
00:49:21,270 --> 00:49:19,520
a heightened technological capacity or a

1389
00:49:23,589 --> 00:49:21,280
heightened consciousness capacity that

1390
00:49:24,790 --> 00:49:23,599
allows them perhaps to manipulate our

1391
00:49:27,910 --> 00:49:24,800
perceptions

1392
00:49:30,710 --> 00:49:27,920
uh then then people posited perhaps this

1393
00:49:32,630 --> 00:49:30,720
is an ultra-terrestrial species

1394
00:49:34,230 --> 00:49:32,640
perhaps even at some point again there's

1395
00:49:36,470 --> 00:49:34,240
different ways you it's talked about but

1396
00:49:38,950 --> 00:49:36,480
one of the proposals is they they may

1397
00:49:40,549 --> 00:49:38,960
even have an evolutionary connection to

1398
00:49:42,069 --> 00:49:40,559
us which

1399
00:49:44,870 --> 00:49:42,079
ties into the whole genetic piece which

1400
00:49:46,309 --> 00:49:44,880
we can get into as well uh because again

1401
00:49:47,910 --> 00:49:46,319
like like you pointed out earlier we

1402
00:49:49,670 --> 00:49:47,920
want to always try and make sense of as

1403
00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:49,680
much of the data as we can you know like

1404
00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:50,880
when we see

1405
00:49:55,670 --> 00:49:52,720
consistent trends showing up in the the

1406
00:49:57,589 --> 00:49:55,680
data over and over and over again

1407
00:49:59,750 --> 00:49:57,599
that again even if you account for some

1408
00:50:01,670 --> 00:49:59,760
witnesses who are not credible

1409
00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:01,680
when you look at the the body of data

1410
00:50:06,069 --> 00:50:03,680
over time and that stuff keeps dripping

1411
00:50:07,750 --> 00:50:06,079
down through your you know filter

1412
00:50:09,510 --> 00:50:07,760
there seems to be something there either

1413
00:50:12,069 --> 00:50:09,520
it's it's some sort of psychological

1414
00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:12,079
ploy and you need to analyze that or

1415
00:50:16,950 --> 00:50:15,040
it's like on face value something it's a

1416
00:50:19,190 --> 00:50:16,960
data point we need to make make sense of

1417
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:19,200
within these different hypotheses

1418
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:20,720
but yeah the idea with ultra

1419
00:50:25,990 --> 00:50:23,200
terrestrials is that they again it's not

1420
00:50:27,670 --> 00:50:26,000
an either or they may be here sometimes

1421
00:50:29,349 --> 00:50:27,680
and sometimes not they may be connected

1422
00:50:32,309 --> 00:50:29,359
to the earth in a very rooted way

1423
00:50:33,589 --> 00:50:32,319
perhaps even older than us perhaps

1424
00:50:36,390 --> 00:50:33,599
but they may

1425
00:50:38,710 --> 00:50:36,400
have capacities that um you know extend

1426
00:50:40,470 --> 00:50:38,720
beyond ours either technologically or in

1427
00:50:43,190 --> 00:50:40,480
terms of their understanding of

1428
00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:43,200
consciousness that kind of thing

1429
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:44,480
yeah

1430
00:50:48,630 --> 00:50:46,559
there's such a uh

1431
00:50:51,190 --> 00:50:48,640
what i like about that theory is the is

1432
00:50:53,670 --> 00:50:51,200
the kind of familiarity that it

1433
00:50:57,270 --> 00:50:53,680
includes that um

1434
00:50:59,430 --> 00:50:57,280
it the sort of family lineage concept of

1435
00:51:01,589 --> 00:50:59,440
it that it it

1436
00:51:04,630 --> 00:51:01,599
it's almost a bridge to

1437
00:51:07,270 --> 00:51:04,640
this sort of extreme otherness that may

1438
00:51:09,910 --> 00:51:07,280
uh very well exist you know it allows us

1439
00:51:12,549 --> 00:51:09,920
to entertain these notions and also i

1440
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:15,190
that that potentially it's within our

1441
00:51:19,190 --> 00:51:16,800
own reach right

1442
00:51:20,390 --> 00:51:19,200
so if we do share kind of a common

1443
00:51:22,790 --> 00:51:20,400
ancestor

1444
00:51:25,349 --> 00:51:22,800
with these ultra terrestrials you know

1445
00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:25,359
what is it that that that kind of

1446
00:51:30,230 --> 00:51:27,680
put us down this other path and can we

1447
00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:30,240
get back you know can we do something

1448
00:51:37,430 --> 00:51:33,760
uh to uh to take on the qualities that

1449
00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:37,440
these other uh sort of genetic siblings

1450
00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:39,520
uh have you know how do we do that or

1451
00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:41,280
what can they teach us or you know but

1452
00:51:45,349 --> 00:51:42,960
it's also interesting too that the the

1453
00:51:47,589 --> 00:51:45,359
ultra terrestrial hypothesis i think

1454
00:51:49,990 --> 00:51:47,599
uh and and as as this is true for all of

1455
00:51:51,990 --> 00:51:50,000
these theories quite frankly it blends

1456
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:52,000
into itself these

1457
00:51:55,349 --> 00:51:52,800
uh

1458
00:51:57,910 --> 00:51:55,359
the the the the sort of desires and

1459
00:52:00,230 --> 00:51:57,920
needs of the culture that we occupy you

1460
00:52:02,950 --> 00:52:00,240
know so it lays on to it

1461
00:52:05,750 --> 00:52:02,960
we lay on to it i should say uh the this

1462
00:52:07,270 --> 00:52:05,760
sort of notion that um

1463
00:52:09,349 --> 00:52:07,280
you know there's a

1464
00:52:11,190 --> 00:52:09,359
uh a more advanced you know human

1465
00:52:13,670 --> 00:52:11,200
civilization it borrows from these

1466
00:52:15,829 --> 00:52:13,680
theories of atlantis and all these

1467
00:52:18,470 --> 00:52:15,839
megalithic structures maybe they're so

1468
00:52:21,589 --> 00:52:18,480
you know intertwined with this concept

1469
00:52:23,430 --> 00:52:21,599
right um and and two there kind of value

1470
00:52:25,430 --> 00:52:23,440
uh

1471
00:52:26,710 --> 00:52:25,440
the value set of the ultra terrestrials

1472
00:52:27,990 --> 00:52:26,720
you'll often hear to it refer you know

1473
00:52:30,150 --> 00:52:28,000
that where we talk about things like

1474
00:52:32,230 --> 00:52:30,160
well they don't want us to pollute the

1475
00:52:33,589 --> 00:52:32,240
earth they don't want us to you know

1476
00:52:36,150 --> 00:52:33,599
fight each other you know these are

1477
00:52:38,470 --> 00:52:36,160
things that you know come from our need

1478
00:52:40,390 --> 00:52:38,480
to really just stop you know to stop the

1479
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:40,400
violence that we cannot seem to stop

1480
00:52:45,190 --> 00:52:42,720
amongst ourselves uh both against our

1481
00:52:47,589 --> 00:52:45,200
planet and against and with each other

1482
00:52:49,430 --> 00:52:47,599
right but you raise a really interesting

1483
00:52:51,349 --> 00:52:49,440
metric to pay attention to their a

1484
00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:51,359
really interesting data point

1485
00:52:55,670 --> 00:52:53,280
and that is you know

1486
00:52:58,630 --> 00:52:55,680
one of the um you know aspects of the

1487
00:53:01,030 --> 00:52:58,640
data that lends people lends this

1488
00:53:03,270 --> 00:53:01,040
hypothesis as a strong contender

1489
00:53:04,549 --> 00:53:03,280
a strong contender is that

1490
00:53:06,150 --> 00:53:04,559
they seem to be

1491
00:53:07,910 --> 00:53:06,160
really concerned about the earth they

1492
00:53:09,349 --> 00:53:07,920
seem to be concerned about

1493
00:53:11,910 --> 00:53:09,359
nuclear weapons they seem to be

1494
00:53:13,589 --> 00:53:11,920
concerned about us polluting the planet

1495
00:53:15,990 --> 00:53:13,599
um

1496
00:53:17,750 --> 00:53:16,000
and you could argue of course

1497
00:53:20,309 --> 00:53:17,760
you can make the argument that if if you

1498
00:53:21,430 --> 00:53:20,319
had a sort of highly conscious et

1499
00:53:24,549 --> 00:53:21,440
species

1500
00:53:27,349 --> 00:53:24,559
that looked at their you know sort of uh

1501
00:53:29,349 --> 00:53:27,359
cut you know distant cousins uh

1502
00:53:30,630 --> 00:53:29,359
spatially and said oh look they're at

1503
00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:30,640
they're at that stage of their

1504
00:53:34,069 --> 00:53:32,400
civilization where they could destroy

1505
00:53:36,230 --> 00:53:34,079
themselves we feel bad for them let's

1506
00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:36,240
step in like you know older brothers and

1507
00:53:39,990 --> 00:53:38,240
sisters and and help them out while

1508
00:53:40,950 --> 00:53:40,000
that's a possibility

1509
00:53:42,549 --> 00:53:40,960
um

1510
00:53:45,589 --> 00:53:42,559
when you look at

1511
00:53:47,750 --> 00:53:45,599
the degree of concern uh that these

1512
00:53:49,829 --> 00:53:47,760
others seem to show as again getting

1513
00:53:52,069 --> 00:53:49,839
back to that that metric i pointed out

1514
00:53:53,910 --> 00:53:52,079
earlier especially since the dawn of the

1515
00:53:56,309 --> 00:53:53,920
atomic age

1516
00:53:57,589 --> 00:53:56,319
then it it's it's and then again we need

1517
00:53:58,870 --> 00:53:57,599
to get into the genetic component

1518
00:53:59,750 --> 00:53:58,880
because

1519
00:54:01,750 --> 00:53:59,760
um

1520
00:54:04,150 --> 00:54:01,760
it certainly seems like it's not it's

1521
00:54:05,109 --> 00:54:04,160
not hard to postulate it's logical to

1522
00:54:07,910 --> 00:54:05,119
say that

1523
00:54:09,510 --> 00:54:07,920
a species most concerned with what we do

1524
00:54:11,510 --> 00:54:09,520
to the planet is one that has to

1525
00:54:13,270 --> 00:54:11,520
cohabitate the planet with us

1526
00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:13,280
even if they're only here some of the

1527
00:54:15,829 --> 00:54:14,880
time or they kind of like

1528
00:54:17,990 --> 00:54:15,839
you know

1529
00:54:19,670 --> 00:54:18,000
bi-locate between here and some altered

1530
00:54:21,589 --> 00:54:19,680
dimension or whatever

1531
00:54:23,829 --> 00:54:21,599
if they or maybe there's a biosphere

1532
00:54:25,030 --> 00:54:23,839
that's interdimensional you know like

1533
00:54:26,309 --> 00:54:25,040
and that

1534
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:26,319
that's been part of the narrative is

1535
00:54:30,150 --> 00:54:29,040
that when we detonate atomic bombs again

1536
00:54:33,190 --> 00:54:30,160
it's hard for us to wrap our heads

1537
00:54:34,950 --> 00:54:33,200
around it and it sounds almost absurd

1538
00:54:36,870 --> 00:54:34,960
and some people have rejected it because

1539
00:54:38,710 --> 00:54:36,880
of that and some people even tend to the

1540
00:54:39,670 --> 00:54:38,720
idea that this sounds like deception

1541
00:54:41,910 --> 00:54:39,680
because they can't wrap their head

1542
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:41,920
around it but one of the narratives is

1543
00:54:46,630 --> 00:54:44,000
you're doing damage

1544
00:54:48,710 --> 00:54:46,640
you know across the vastness of your

1545
00:54:50,789 --> 00:54:48,720
solar system and interdimensionally in

1546
00:54:52,950 --> 00:54:50,799
some sort of extended biome right in

1547
00:54:55,990 --> 00:54:52,960
some shadow biome that we're not aware

1548
00:54:58,230 --> 00:54:56,000
of um that that also gets impacted when

1549
00:54:59,829 --> 00:54:58,240
we do things like this and and when you

1550
00:55:00,789 --> 00:54:59,839
look at like just

1551
00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:00,799
on an

1552
00:55:06,069 --> 00:55:03,520
atomic level what an atomic bomb is you

1553
00:55:08,630 --> 00:55:06,079
know splitting the fabric of reality you

1554
00:55:10,309 --> 00:55:08,640
know and releasing this massive energy

1555
00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:10,319
from doing something that is

1556
00:55:14,950 --> 00:55:13,119
doesn't naturally you know uh occur in

1557
00:55:16,870 --> 00:55:14,960
nature we're actually saying we're gonna

1558
00:55:18,950 --> 00:55:16,880
take something of the fabric we're gonna

1559
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:18,960
like smash it apart and release this

1560
00:55:22,150 --> 00:55:20,640
massive energy

1561
00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:22,160
maybe we don't understand the full

1562
00:55:27,190 --> 00:55:24,480
implications of that um

1563
00:55:30,150 --> 00:55:27,200
but you know it's it's it's hard not to

1564
00:55:31,670 --> 00:55:30,160
be persuaded by the notion that

1565
00:55:33,270 --> 00:55:31,680
the degree to which they show real

1566
00:55:35,829 --> 00:55:33,280
concern there either it's because

1567
00:55:38,470 --> 00:55:35,839
they're just really selfless and care

1568
00:55:40,230 --> 00:55:38,480
about others which is possible yeah

1569
00:55:41,910 --> 00:55:40,240
because again as you become

1570
00:55:45,030 --> 00:55:41,920
more advanced as a species you tend to

1571
00:55:47,270 --> 00:55:45,040
have more of a a larger sense of

1572
00:55:49,829 --> 00:55:47,280
uh collective self and you become your

1573
00:55:52,390 --> 00:55:49,839
your are your sphere of concern gets

1574
00:55:54,710 --> 00:55:52,400
broader and broader so it would not be

1575
00:55:56,069 --> 00:55:54,720
just like the star trek notion again

1576
00:55:57,430 --> 00:55:56,079
it wouldn't be surprising that while

1577
00:55:59,030 --> 00:55:57,440
they may have a prime directive that

1578
00:55:59,990 --> 00:55:59,040
says they shouldn't interfere when they

1579
00:56:01,829 --> 00:56:00,000
see us

1580
00:56:03,430 --> 00:56:01,839
you know again on the precipice of

1581
00:56:05,829 --> 00:56:03,440
self-destruction maybe that's the one

1582
00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:05,839
time they they sort of like you know

1583
00:56:08,470 --> 00:56:07,040
cross their fingers and say we're

1584
00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:08,480
willing to you know break the rule or at

1585
00:56:13,589 --> 00:56:11,440
least stretch the rules in this one case

1586
00:56:16,549 --> 00:56:13,599
but as much as that's a possibility it's

1587
00:56:19,030 --> 00:56:16,559
hard to argue with the fact that

1588
00:56:21,190 --> 00:56:19,040
the species most concerned with what

1589
00:56:23,109 --> 00:56:21,200
we're doing to the planet would be one

1590
00:56:25,270 --> 00:56:23,119
because again when we had clubs and

1591
00:56:27,910 --> 00:56:25,280
sticks and stones and even cannons they

1592
00:56:29,670 --> 00:56:27,920
didn't seem to show up then so much

1593
00:56:32,069 --> 00:56:29,680
once we started detonating

1594
00:56:33,589 --> 00:56:32,079
detonating atomic bombs they did show up

1595
00:56:36,549 --> 00:56:33,599
at least you could argue that that's the

1596
00:56:38,710 --> 00:56:36,559
case um and

1597
00:56:40,309 --> 00:56:38,720
so that's compelling what do you think

1598
00:56:43,270 --> 00:56:40,319
yeah it makes me think of an analogy

1599
00:56:45,109 --> 00:56:43,280
like like a kid's um like a daycare

1600
00:56:46,309 --> 00:56:45,119
right so you've got a bunch of children

1601
00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:46,319
and they're at the daycare they're

1602
00:56:49,589 --> 00:56:48,480
playing with toys and most of the time

1603
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:49,599
they're playing with the toys and

1604
00:56:53,430 --> 00:56:51,440
everything's fine you know and as you as

1605
00:56:54,950 --> 00:56:53,440
the as the person is taking care of

1606
00:56:56,549 --> 00:56:54,960
those kids you know you're just kind of

1607
00:56:59,510 --> 00:56:56,559
keeping an eye on them and

1608
00:57:02,710 --> 00:56:59,520
they're having a great time but most

1609
00:57:04,309 --> 00:57:02,720
just every toy in that room repurposed

1610
00:57:06,150 --> 00:57:04,319
could be something very dangerous you

1611
00:57:08,309 --> 00:57:06,160
know so it's the rare times where the

1612
00:57:11,270 --> 00:57:08,319
children are are kind of going off

1613
00:57:13,589 --> 00:57:11,280
script so to speak from play and picking

1614
00:57:15,670 --> 00:57:13,599
up a toy and using it in a dangerous way

1615
00:57:17,510 --> 00:57:15,680
and it's in that moment where that

1616
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:17,520
caretaker steps in

1617
00:57:21,829 --> 00:57:19,760
and takes the toy away

1618
00:57:23,510 --> 00:57:21,839
or you know changes the way the play is

1619
00:57:25,430 --> 00:57:23,520
structured kind of brings it back to the

1620
00:57:27,910 --> 00:57:25,440
narrative that uh

1621
00:57:30,309 --> 00:57:27,920
is is what it would be would be expected

1622
00:57:32,630 --> 00:57:30,319
you know play within the rules right and

1623
00:57:35,030 --> 00:57:32,640
so that's it's a good fit i think uh

1624
00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:35,040
sort of description of of the kind of

1625
00:57:40,390 --> 00:57:37,280
that mature consciousness sort of

1626
00:57:43,030 --> 00:57:40,400
being present uh with the less

1627
00:57:45,990 --> 00:57:43,040
sort of aware or emerging conscious

1628
00:57:47,109 --> 00:57:46,000
beings and taking action appropriately

1629
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:47,119
without

1630
00:57:50,710 --> 00:57:48,640
overly acting you know it's not like

1631
00:57:52,789 --> 00:57:50,720
they're taking away all the toys like

1632
00:57:55,030 --> 00:57:52,799
let's remove all the toys now because

1633
00:57:56,789 --> 00:57:55,040
this one kid decided to use a block and

1634
00:57:57,990 --> 00:57:56,799
was going to you know bludgeon their

1635
00:57:59,910 --> 00:57:58,000
their fellow

1636
00:58:02,309 --> 00:57:59,920
friend with that so you know i think it

1637
00:58:04,309 --> 00:58:02,319
fits the story pretty well

1638
00:58:05,990 --> 00:58:04,319
yeah and it's interesting too because

1639
00:58:09,430 --> 00:58:06,000
we've been talking a lot about cultural

1640
00:58:11,349 --> 00:58:09,440
context and part of the reason why i

1641
00:58:14,230 --> 00:58:11,359
think the the the

1642
00:58:16,630 --> 00:58:14,240
idh and the idea of ultra-terrestrials

1643
00:58:17,910 --> 00:58:16,640
became more paramount as well

1644
00:58:21,109 --> 00:58:17,920
is because

1645
00:58:22,549 --> 00:58:21,119
as we learned more about the world

1646
00:58:24,230 --> 00:58:22,559
we had mapped out more and more

1647
00:58:26,789 --> 00:58:24,240
territory

1648
00:58:28,789 --> 00:58:26,799
it became increasingly a stretch to

1649
00:58:30,390 --> 00:58:28,799
imagine there could be a sister humanoid

1650
00:58:31,990 --> 00:58:30,400
species

1651
00:58:33,510 --> 00:58:32,000
like hiding away somewhere in our

1652
00:58:35,430 --> 00:58:33,520
physical plane

1653
00:58:36,710 --> 00:58:35,440
you know some people still like that

1654
00:58:39,190 --> 00:58:36,720
idea and that's again more of the

1655
00:58:41,270 --> 00:58:39,200
crypto-terrestrial idea that maybe you

1656
00:58:42,789 --> 00:58:41,280
know even where we live in you know

1657
00:58:44,789 --> 00:58:42,799
appalachia there's sort of this notion

1658
00:58:45,750 --> 00:58:44,799
of these cave-dwelling kind of beings

1659
00:58:47,190 --> 00:58:45,760
that

1660
00:58:49,109 --> 00:58:47,200
show up like you know the kentucky

1661
00:58:51,030 --> 00:58:49,119
goblins and stuff and and people think

1662
00:58:53,270 --> 00:58:51,040
that maybe those are

1663
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:53,280
related to the ancient fairies from

1664
00:58:57,430 --> 00:58:55,200
europe and that these are actually

1665
00:58:59,589 --> 00:58:57,440
beings that you know do live in caves

1666
00:59:01,910 --> 00:58:59,599
and come out once in a while and

1667
00:59:02,789 --> 00:59:01,920
you know kind of play games with us

1668
00:59:04,630 --> 00:59:02,799
but

1669
00:59:06,789 --> 00:59:04,640
generally in the society that's become

1670
00:59:08,390 --> 00:59:06,799
less and less of a possibility in

1671
00:59:11,030 --> 00:59:08,400
people's minds that you know there's

1672
00:59:13,750 --> 00:59:11,040
just seems unlikely to people so

1673
00:59:15,910 --> 00:59:13,760
then we postulate okay as our notion of

1674
00:59:17,670 --> 00:59:15,920
what constitutes reality is expanded we

1675
00:59:19,030 --> 00:59:17,680
go oh maybe they're there in this other

1676
00:59:21,030 --> 00:59:19,040
place then you know they're in this

1677
00:59:22,789 --> 00:59:21,040
parallel reality

1678
00:59:24,150 --> 00:59:22,799
that begins to make sense so it's

1679
00:59:25,109 --> 00:59:24,160
interesting how

1680
00:59:27,109 --> 00:59:25,119
um

1681
00:59:28,710 --> 00:59:27,119
you know again it's a combination of

1682
00:59:30,549 --> 00:59:28,720
kind of like santa claus right you grow

1683
00:59:32,470 --> 00:59:30,559
up and you you start putting two and two

1684
00:59:33,990 --> 00:59:32,480
together and you look at like

1685
00:59:36,150 --> 00:59:34,000
either you don't even have a chimney or

1686
00:59:37,910 --> 00:59:36,160
your chimney is so narrow that you

1687
00:59:39,510 --> 00:59:37,920
how does it get down you know and so

1688
00:59:41,030 --> 00:59:39,520
over time you go

1689
00:59:43,109 --> 00:59:41,040
i'm not sure that's the santa claus

1690
00:59:44,789 --> 00:59:43,119
hypothesis makes a lot of sense as it's

1691
00:59:46,549 --> 00:59:44,799
postulated so and you shift your

1692
00:59:48,309 --> 00:59:46,559
perspective based on your growing

1693
00:59:50,230 --> 00:59:48,319
knowledge of the world

1694
00:59:52,069 --> 00:59:50,240
same idea here you know that these these

1695
00:59:54,150 --> 00:59:52,079
notions we propose

1696
00:59:56,069 --> 00:59:54,160
are inevitably a combination of what

1697
00:59:57,190 --> 00:59:56,079
feels like the best fit based on what we

1698
01:00:00,069 --> 00:59:57,200
understand

1699
01:00:02,870 --> 01:00:00,079
and what new aspects are coming online

1700
01:00:04,789 --> 01:00:02,880
uh that that allow us to uh you know

1701
01:00:06,549 --> 01:00:04,799
think about new possibilities

1702
01:00:07,349 --> 01:00:06,559
absolutely

1703
01:00:09,670 --> 01:00:07,359
well

1704
01:00:12,549 --> 01:00:09,680
after kind of unpacking all those things

1705
01:00:16,069 --> 01:00:14,230
and i know you're particularly good at

1706
01:00:17,270 --> 01:00:16,079
doing this you know so what are the

1707
01:00:19,109 --> 01:00:17,280
things that

1708
01:00:20,789 --> 01:00:19,119
are bubbling up to you

1709
01:00:22,069 --> 01:00:20,799
that

1710
01:00:24,470 --> 01:00:22,079
these three

1711
01:00:27,190 --> 01:00:24,480
uh concepts seem to either

1712
01:00:29,750 --> 01:00:27,200
have in common or or is there anything

1713
01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:29,760
that might be a meta characteristic

1714
01:00:33,109 --> 01:00:32,160
of these things that

1715
01:00:34,710 --> 01:00:33,119
you know

1716
01:00:36,870 --> 01:00:34,720
emerges and might be a better fit for

1717
01:00:38,069 --> 01:00:36,880
what's happening here

1718
01:00:41,030 --> 01:00:38,079
it's really interesting you brought that

1719
01:00:42,950 --> 01:00:41,040
up and that's because i would say

1720
01:00:45,829 --> 01:00:42,960
when i'm honest with myself and i look

1721
01:00:48,230 --> 01:00:45,839
back at my history studying this

1722
01:00:50,950 --> 01:00:48,240
i would say i've shifted a few times you

1723
01:00:51,910 --> 01:00:50,960
know there there was a time where

1724
01:00:54,630 --> 01:00:51,920
um

1725
01:00:57,109 --> 01:00:54,640
the eth partly the reason why that

1726
01:00:59,589 --> 01:00:57,119
diminished in my mind as a possibility

1727
01:01:01,670 --> 01:00:59,599
was because of for instance the genetic

1728
01:01:04,069 --> 01:01:01,680
aspect the hybridization aspect the

1729
01:01:06,470 --> 01:01:04,079
weird sexual encounters

1730
01:01:08,950 --> 01:01:06,480
all of those elements seem to me

1731
01:01:11,750 --> 01:01:08,960
to make more sense for a species that

1732
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:11,760
somehow biologically connected to us

1733
01:01:17,190 --> 01:01:13,920
even if it's in the distant past

1734
01:01:18,470 --> 01:01:17,200
you know uh an early sort of ancestor of

1735
01:01:20,309 --> 01:01:18,480
ours or something or we shared an

1736
01:01:21,270 --> 01:01:20,319
ancestor at some point

1737
01:01:23,349 --> 01:01:21,280
um

1738
01:01:25,589 --> 01:01:23,359
that this idea that

1739
01:01:27,109 --> 01:01:25,599
you know perhaps um

1740
01:01:29,270 --> 01:01:27,119
they're genetically impoverished or

1741
01:01:31,589 --> 01:01:29,280
whatever you know that the idea that

1742
01:01:33,510 --> 01:01:31,599
um if they interbred too much and maybe

1743
01:01:35,990 --> 01:01:33,520
because of our expanding

1744
01:01:37,990 --> 01:01:36,000
conquest of the globe they had to you

1745
01:01:39,990 --> 01:01:38,000
know dwell in smaller and smaller places

1746
01:01:41,829 --> 01:01:40,000
and and maybe because of the changing

1747
01:01:44,150 --> 01:01:41,839
environment didn't do so well they're

1748
01:01:46,069 --> 01:01:44,160
not flourishing and so but they have

1749
01:01:47,349 --> 01:01:46,079
some capacities beyond us

1750
01:01:48,549 --> 01:01:47,359
technologically or in terms of

1751
01:01:51,829 --> 01:01:48,559
consciousness

1752
01:01:53,910 --> 01:01:51,839
so mac tony's um in his book the crypto

1753
01:01:55,349 --> 01:01:53,920
proposed that

1754
01:01:56,710 --> 01:01:55,359
maybe they are on the one hand they're

1755
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:56,720
ahead of us but on the other hand they

1756
01:02:00,150 --> 01:01:57,839
need us

1757
01:02:02,950 --> 01:02:00,160
that maybe for their their dna maybe

1758
01:02:04,390 --> 01:02:02,960
they just need to inject fresh stock

1759
01:02:07,670 --> 01:02:04,400
because we know this this is true you

1760
01:02:09,349 --> 01:02:07,680
know if you have any culture that is too

1761
01:02:11,510 --> 01:02:09,359
interbred eventually you'll end up with

1762
01:02:14,390 --> 01:02:11,520
defects you know we know that happens in

1763
01:02:16,549 --> 01:02:14,400
a family but even i i found this very

1764
01:02:17,670 --> 01:02:16,559
interesting to learn this recently

1765
01:02:20,710 --> 01:02:17,680
even when

1766
01:02:22,309 --> 01:02:20,720
discussing the future human hypothesis

1767
01:02:25,349 --> 01:02:22,319
that

1768
01:02:27,109 --> 01:02:25,359
even if even amongst millions eventually

1769
01:02:28,710 --> 01:02:27,119
you'll run into those same problems

1770
01:02:29,910 --> 01:02:28,720
where you'll get defects because there's

1771
01:02:30,789 --> 01:02:29,920
not enough

1772
01:02:32,150 --> 01:02:30,799
uh

1773
01:02:34,710 --> 01:02:32,160
novel

1774
01:02:35,510 --> 01:02:34,720
dna going into the into the mix kind of

1775
01:02:37,510 --> 01:02:35,520
thing

1776
01:02:38,470 --> 01:02:37,520
even amongst a really large population

1777
01:02:42,549 --> 01:02:38,480
so

1778
01:02:44,069 --> 01:02:42,559
again making sense of all the data as

1779
01:02:45,589 --> 01:02:44,079
much as we can

1780
01:02:46,870 --> 01:02:45,599
knowing that there's this sexual

1781
01:02:48,309 --> 01:02:46,880
component

1782
01:02:49,829 --> 01:02:48,319
again as i mentioned recently in a

1783
01:02:52,470 --> 01:02:49,839
podcast whether it's like you know a

1784
01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:52,480
cold machine kind of extracting sperm or

1785
01:02:57,750 --> 01:02:55,760
eggs or there seems to be like uh a

1786
01:02:59,829 --> 01:02:57,760
setup where a kind of actual

1787
01:03:03,910 --> 01:02:59,839
sexual encounter happens with a humanoid

1788
01:03:06,069 --> 01:03:03,920
or human looking being and then

1789
01:03:07,990 --> 01:03:06,079
really crazy stories like you know this

1790
01:03:09,589 --> 01:03:08,000
being will then like touch their tummy

1791
01:03:12,390 --> 01:03:09,599
and point up like

1792
01:03:14,069 --> 01:03:12,400
yahoo you know that worked

1793
01:03:16,230 --> 01:03:14,079
hybrid on the way

1794
01:03:19,430 --> 01:03:16,240
you know really weird things like that

1795
01:03:21,190 --> 01:03:19,440
um and then you know human beings uh

1796
01:03:23,109 --> 01:03:21,200
later being introduced to what seem like

1797
01:03:25,109 --> 01:03:23,119
hybrid beings as far as they can tell i

1798
01:03:26,549 --> 01:03:25,119
mean it could be a ruse but

1799
01:03:28,470 --> 01:03:26,559
they're holding in their hands what

1800
01:03:30,549 --> 01:03:28,480
seems like an organic biological being

1801
01:03:32,710 --> 01:03:30,559
that looks half alien half human and on

1802
01:03:34,950 --> 01:03:32,720
top of that seems to show their

1803
01:03:36,710 --> 01:03:34,960
biological physiological traits to make

1804
01:03:38,069 --> 01:03:36,720
them really believe that this is their

1805
01:03:39,589 --> 01:03:38,079
offspring again you could say this is

1806
01:03:41,990 --> 01:03:39,599
all some sort of ploy

1807
01:03:44,470 --> 01:03:42,000
and it's it's some sort of psyop but

1808
01:03:46,390 --> 01:03:44,480
they believe that anyway so then you

1809
01:03:47,349 --> 01:03:46,400
have to ask yourself you know what

1810
01:03:49,349 --> 01:03:47,359
uh

1811
01:03:51,190 --> 01:03:49,359
how do you make sense of that

1812
01:03:53,190 --> 01:03:51,200
so that's what what i'm getting at is

1813
01:03:54,710 --> 01:03:53,200
initially that made me lean away from

1814
01:03:56,309 --> 01:03:54,720
the eth and i thought okay

1815
01:03:58,230 --> 01:03:56,319
ultra-terrestrial maybe

1816
01:03:59,190 --> 01:03:58,240
crypto-terrestrial some combination of

1817
01:04:00,950 --> 01:03:59,200
the two

1818
01:04:04,390 --> 01:04:00,960
made more sense

1819
01:04:06,549 --> 01:04:04,400
but then i came across notions like um

1820
01:04:08,309 --> 01:04:06,559
you know convergent evolution which is

1821
01:04:10,710 --> 01:04:08,319
this notion that

1822
01:04:11,750 --> 01:04:10,720
actually just just as

1823
01:04:14,789 --> 01:04:11,760
um

1824
01:04:16,549 --> 01:04:14,799
the periodic table is you know

1825
01:04:19,910 --> 01:04:16,559
everywhere in the cosmos it's not just

1826
01:04:22,150 --> 01:04:19,920
here and the same um you know

1827
01:04:24,230 --> 01:04:22,160
elements and processes that form the

1828
01:04:25,589 --> 01:04:24,240
earth and the sun are happening across

1829
01:04:26,630 --> 01:04:25,599
the cosmos

1830
01:04:28,870 --> 01:04:26,640
and it

1831
01:04:30,789 --> 01:04:28,880
it makes sense that evolution is a is a

1832
01:04:33,430 --> 01:04:30,799
sort of cosmic response that's sort of

1833
01:04:35,910 --> 01:04:33,440
built into nature across the board

1834
01:04:37,589 --> 01:04:35,920
that if you uh that maybe

1835
01:04:40,710 --> 01:04:37,599
the idea with convergent evolution is

1836
01:04:43,829 --> 01:04:40,720
that something like a humanoid bipedal

1837
01:04:45,829 --> 01:04:43,839
figure might be a common way that nature

1838
01:04:47,589 --> 01:04:45,839
responds to a variety of environments

1839
01:04:48,710 --> 01:04:47,599
that for a variety of reasons it's just

1840
01:04:50,309 --> 01:04:48,720
a good

1841
01:04:52,390 --> 01:04:50,319
you know set of

1842
01:04:55,109 --> 01:04:52,400
attributes to end up with

1843
01:04:57,910 --> 01:04:55,119
and and when that happens you um

1844
01:05:00,069 --> 01:04:57,920
you you suddenly opens up the eth again

1845
01:05:01,670 --> 01:05:00,079
you say maybe it's not as simple as they

1846
01:05:02,870 --> 01:05:01,680
look too much like us so they can't be

1847
01:05:04,230 --> 01:05:02,880
from here

1848
01:05:05,349 --> 01:05:04,240
add in

1849
01:05:07,029 --> 01:05:05,359
and i'm going to flip it over to you to

1850
01:05:09,589 --> 01:05:07,039
give your thoughts on on the mix of

1851
01:05:11,829 --> 01:05:09,599
these three but when you add in also the

1852
01:05:14,549 --> 01:05:11,839
notion that again because like i said

1853
01:05:16,549 --> 01:05:14,559
last week we have so few baselines what

1854
01:05:18,950 --> 01:05:16,559
if there was some sort of cosmic seeding

1855
01:05:21,349 --> 01:05:18,960
program that happened you know

1856
01:05:23,270 --> 01:05:21,359
in ancient history

1857
01:05:25,029 --> 01:05:23,280
across the cosmos

1858
01:05:26,630 --> 01:05:25,039
then that could also explain for why you

1859
01:05:28,390 --> 01:05:26,640
have these humanoid figures that seem to

1860
01:05:29,829 --> 01:05:28,400
pop up in numerous places and we

1861
01:05:32,309 --> 01:05:29,839
shouldn't just assume that if they're

1862
01:05:34,390 --> 01:05:32,319
human-looking or humanoid-ish that

1863
01:05:37,270 --> 01:05:34,400
they're from here it may be that we're

1864
01:05:40,390 --> 01:05:37,280
again this is so the the you know

1865
01:05:42,390 --> 01:05:40,400
the the egoic response uh gets you know

1866
01:05:44,309 --> 01:05:42,400
struck down the the notion of being at

1867
01:05:46,309 --> 01:05:44,319
the top of the chain you know the big

1868
01:05:48,390 --> 01:05:46,319
dog gets struck down for us what if

1869
01:05:49,589 --> 01:05:48,400
we're just one of many iterations of a

1870
01:05:51,829 --> 01:05:49,599
humanoid

1871
01:05:53,589 --> 01:05:51,839
seeding that happened across the cosmos

1872
01:05:55,349 --> 01:05:53,599
and that could also make sense of that

1873
01:05:57,670 --> 01:05:55,359
so you start suddenly going wait a

1874
01:05:59,349 --> 01:05:57,680
second there's lots of ways i can make

1875
01:06:01,109 --> 01:05:59,359
sense of this data and then it becomes

1876
01:06:02,789 --> 01:06:01,119
which one is your favorite and then

1877
01:06:04,870 --> 01:06:02,799
being honest with yourself why maybe

1878
01:06:06,150 --> 01:06:04,880
that's the case yeah

1879
01:06:07,510 --> 01:06:06,160
yeah well you

1880
01:06:10,230 --> 01:06:07,520
where you landed is where i was going to

1881
01:06:11,910 --> 01:06:10,240
jump in so i love that uh because you

1882
01:06:13,829 --> 01:06:11,920
know i agree and i keep coming back to

1883
01:06:15,990 --> 01:06:13,839
this notion that um

1884
01:06:18,470 --> 01:06:16,000
you know what if

1885
01:06:20,230 --> 01:06:18,480
you know human humans and humanoid

1886
01:06:22,069 --> 01:06:20,240
beings are really very prevalent you

1887
01:06:24,230 --> 01:06:22,079
know what if they're everywhere

1888
01:06:25,829 --> 01:06:24,240
um and that we you know

1889
01:06:28,470 --> 01:06:25,839
were sort of

1890
01:06:30,069 --> 01:06:28,480
placed here as you mentioned uh a long

1891
01:06:32,150 --> 01:06:30,079
time ago and we just happened to believe

1892
01:06:33,190 --> 01:06:32,160
that we emerged here when we really

1893
01:06:34,630 --> 01:06:33,200
didn't

1894
01:06:36,150 --> 01:06:34,640
and that would explain and kind of

1895
01:06:38,069 --> 01:06:36,160
better fit some of the

1896
01:06:40,549 --> 01:06:38,079
many of the data points that we seem to

1897
01:06:42,390 --> 01:06:40,559
to hear about

1898
01:06:44,789 --> 01:06:42,400
but you know looking at it from a kind

1899
01:06:46,710 --> 01:06:44,799
of a very high level view as well with

1900
01:06:48,549 --> 01:06:46,720
these three theories and and many of the

1901
01:06:49,510 --> 01:06:48,559
others uh too

1902
01:06:50,470 --> 01:06:49,520
the

1903
01:06:55,109 --> 01:06:50,480
thing that

1904
01:07:00,630 --> 01:06:57,990
the the ability to interact with it

1905
01:07:03,829 --> 01:07:00,640
right so the way that we can interface

1906
01:07:04,950 --> 01:07:03,839
with the beings in in in a in a modality

1907
01:07:06,870 --> 01:07:04,960
that is

1908
01:07:08,549 --> 01:07:06,880
you know pretty familiar to us right

1909
01:07:10,710 --> 01:07:08,559
it's it's not like

1910
01:07:12,630 --> 01:07:10,720
uh we're talking about even even the

1911
01:07:14,309 --> 01:07:12,640
movie arrival which people like to use

1912
01:07:16,309 --> 01:07:14,319
is a good example of you know something

1913
01:07:18,630 --> 01:07:16,319
totally other that we can't really

1914
01:07:20,870 --> 01:07:18,640
relate to like we eventually do we do we

1915
01:07:23,029 --> 01:07:20,880
do eventually figure this out and we you

1916
01:07:25,109 --> 01:07:23,039
know she kind of cracks the code and and

1917
01:07:26,710 --> 01:07:25,119
and communicate with them

1918
01:07:28,710 --> 01:07:26,720
um and so

1919
01:07:31,510 --> 01:07:28,720
you know the the big takeaway for me

1920
01:07:34,630 --> 01:07:31,520
from from the three hypotheses

1921
01:07:36,950 --> 01:07:34,640
is that whatever the others happen to be

1922
01:07:39,270 --> 01:07:36,960
we at least have the sense in which we

1923
01:07:41,750 --> 01:07:39,280
can actually interact with them you know

1924
01:07:43,990 --> 01:07:41,760
we can have a meaningful exchange of

1925
01:07:45,829 --> 01:07:44,000
information and experience with them and

1926
01:07:47,990 --> 01:07:45,839
that says something in and of itself

1927
01:07:50,630 --> 01:07:48,000
right because uh you know i don't know

1928
01:07:52,230 --> 01:07:50,640
about you and i'm i don't i'm not

1929
01:07:54,309 --> 01:07:52,240
multilingual

1930
01:07:55,990 --> 01:07:54,319
but if i'm speaking with someone you

1931
01:07:57,910 --> 01:07:56,000
know who who is and they don't they're

1932
01:07:59,190 --> 01:07:57,920
not speaking english i you know i have a

1933
01:08:01,990 --> 01:07:59,200
hard time understanding them you know i

1934
01:08:03,349 --> 01:08:02,000
cannot understand uh you know uh they're

1935
01:08:05,750 --> 01:08:03,359
the kind of context

1936
01:08:07,190 --> 01:08:05,760
cues and the the nonverbal communication

1937
01:08:08,950 --> 01:08:07,200
but i don't really know exactly what

1938
01:08:10,789 --> 01:08:08,960
they're saying to me but most of these

1939
01:08:12,230 --> 01:08:10,799
stories like you'd read them and it's

1940
01:08:14,230 --> 01:08:12,240
like well yeah we had meaningful

1941
01:08:16,789 --> 01:08:14,240
exchange you know it's through a picture

1942
01:08:18,470 --> 01:08:16,799
a telepathic exchange but even a

1943
01:08:21,669 --> 01:08:18,480
telepathic exchange

1944
01:08:24,229 --> 01:08:21,679
assumes a common sort of substrate

1945
01:08:26,870 --> 01:08:24,239
of reality that we would share which i

1946
01:08:28,550 --> 01:08:26,880
mean to me is a big jump it's a big

1947
01:08:29,669 --> 01:08:28,560
assumption to make

1948
01:08:32,070 --> 01:08:29,679
and so

1949
01:08:35,030 --> 01:08:32,080
you know that opens up

1950
01:08:36,709 --> 01:08:35,040
a lot of notions about uh sort of how

1951
01:08:38,470 --> 01:08:36,719
long the others may

1952
01:08:40,789 --> 01:08:38,480
you know have been interacting with us

1953
01:08:42,789 --> 01:08:40,799
uh maybe they've you know kind of

1954
01:08:43,910 --> 01:08:42,799
learned as they went just like you and i

1955
01:08:45,669 --> 01:08:43,920
would learn if we went to another

1956
01:08:46,789 --> 01:08:45,679
country we had to live there for a long

1957
01:08:48,630 --> 01:08:46,799
time we'd pick up the language

1958
01:08:50,309 --> 01:08:48,640
eventually we might not be native

1959
01:08:52,070 --> 01:08:50,319
speakers be pretty good

1960
01:08:53,510 --> 01:08:52,080
um and that kind of might explain some

1961
01:08:55,590 --> 01:08:53,520
of the data that we hear about where

1962
01:08:57,269 --> 01:08:55,600
they seem to like can interact but it's

1963
01:09:00,070 --> 01:08:57,279
a little bit like weird

1964
01:09:02,149 --> 01:09:00,080
not uh in a very familiar way or an

1965
01:09:03,189 --> 01:09:02,159
intimately familiar way

1966
01:09:05,110 --> 01:09:03,199
and so

1967
01:09:07,269 --> 01:09:05,120
uh you know the

1968
01:09:09,269 --> 01:09:07,279
for me it's uh what what fascinates me

1969
01:09:11,669 --> 01:09:09,279
about these stories is kind of the

1970
01:09:12,470 --> 01:09:11,679
ultimately like the actual humanness of

1971
01:09:15,590 --> 01:09:12,480
them

1972
01:09:18,630 --> 01:09:15,600
um and you know what that says about

1973
01:09:21,030 --> 01:09:18,640
our our ability to uh either

1974
01:09:22,470 --> 01:09:21,040
like completely anthropomorphized what

1975
01:09:24,870 --> 01:09:22,480
is going on

1976
01:09:27,189 --> 01:09:24,880
and and and in that process totally

1977
01:09:30,309 --> 01:09:27,199
misinterpret what's actually going on

1978
01:09:33,110 --> 01:09:30,319
or we do have some sort of shared

1979
01:09:35,430 --> 01:09:33,120
or or sentience or whatever has a shared

1980
01:09:37,349 --> 01:09:35,440
uh you know sort of language that that

1981
01:09:40,550 --> 01:09:37,359
transcends these kind of cultural

1982
01:09:42,870 --> 01:09:40,560
species specific parameters

1983
01:09:45,030 --> 01:09:42,880
yeah great points um i think one of the

1984
01:09:47,030 --> 01:09:45,040
big questions uh

1985
01:09:49,430 --> 01:09:47,040
is around

1986
01:09:51,269 --> 01:09:49,440
how much can we say is uh

1987
01:09:53,829 --> 01:09:51,279
a cosmic constant

1988
01:09:56,149 --> 01:09:53,839
when it comes to sentient life you know

1989
01:09:57,910 --> 01:09:56,159
how much is it reasonable for us to

1990
01:09:59,590 --> 01:09:57,920
expect that they would be similar enough

1991
01:10:01,590 --> 01:09:59,600
to us that we could have any kind of

1992
01:10:03,910 --> 01:10:01,600
communication that's meaningful

1993
01:10:05,350 --> 01:10:03,920
to what degree is it sensical that their

1994
01:10:07,189 --> 01:10:05,360
relationship to space time would be

1995
01:10:08,310 --> 01:10:07,199
similar enough that we like in the movie

1996
01:10:10,149 --> 01:10:08,320
arrival

1997
01:10:11,669 --> 01:10:10,159
can even think about reality in the same

1998
01:10:13,110 --> 01:10:11,679
ways you know

1999
01:10:14,229 --> 01:10:13,120
part of you know going to a different

2000
01:10:15,430 --> 01:10:14,239
culture you mentioned different

2001
01:10:17,830 --> 01:10:15,440
languages

2002
01:10:20,070 --> 01:10:17,840
and i i kind of speak a couple of them

2003
01:10:21,270 --> 01:10:20,080
not super well but i i try

2004
01:10:23,910 --> 01:10:21,280
but i've been to different parts of the

2005
01:10:25,990 --> 01:10:23,920
world and and lived in different places

2006
01:10:27,510 --> 01:10:26,000
and in addition to the language issue

2007
01:10:29,270 --> 01:10:27,520
there's just a different cultural

2008
01:10:31,270 --> 01:10:29,280
context right the different

2009
01:10:32,630 --> 01:10:31,280
cultural expectations

2010
01:10:34,310 --> 01:10:32,640
so much stuff that you just don't have

2011
01:10:36,470 --> 01:10:34,320
to give thought to here because it's in

2012
01:10:38,470 --> 01:10:36,480
the backdrop we grow up with it

2013
01:10:39,750 --> 01:10:38,480
but you go to some other continent and

2014
01:10:42,149 --> 01:10:39,760
suddenly you're like oh you don't do

2015
01:10:43,910 --> 01:10:42,159
that you know you go to some countries

2016
01:10:45,030 --> 01:10:43,920
and you don't shake with a certain hand

2017
01:10:46,550 --> 01:10:45,040
you don't shake hands with a certain

2018
01:10:48,310 --> 01:10:46,560
hand because that hand's supposed to do

2019
01:10:49,990 --> 01:10:48,320
something else you know

2020
01:10:52,070 --> 01:10:50,000
and we don't think about that here right

2021
01:10:54,709 --> 01:10:52,080
it's just not not in not in the the

2022
01:10:57,350 --> 01:10:54,719
milieu um

2023
01:10:59,030 --> 01:10:57,360
but the the idea of again the cosmic

2024
01:11:01,350 --> 01:10:59,040
seeding program is kind of the x factor

2025
01:11:03,030 --> 01:11:01,360
because that would explain why it's not

2026
01:11:05,110 --> 01:11:03,040
necessarily you know

2027
01:11:06,950 --> 01:11:05,120
a humanocentric way of thinking about

2028
01:11:08,709 --> 01:11:06,960
reality and others

2029
01:11:09,510 --> 01:11:08,719
um

2030
01:11:12,470 --> 01:11:09,520
but

2031
01:11:13,750 --> 01:11:12,480
something i wonder about a lot is that

2032
01:11:16,229 --> 01:11:13,760
it in this

2033
01:11:18,870 --> 01:11:16,239
again inevitably at some point you have

2034
01:11:20,709 --> 01:11:18,880
to postulate something you have to begin

2035
01:11:22,229 --> 01:11:20,719
uh with some givens you know we talked

2036
01:11:23,750 --> 01:11:22,239
about this before we went on on this

2037
01:11:25,030 --> 01:11:23,760
podcast tonight

2038
01:11:27,350 --> 01:11:25,040
that when you're making any kind of

2039
01:11:30,070 --> 01:11:27,360
model of reality or model of existence

2040
01:11:32,229 --> 01:11:30,080
model of sentient life you have to begin

2041
01:11:33,669 --> 01:11:32,239
somewhere right and so

2042
01:11:35,750 --> 01:11:33,679
one way you can begin is with

2043
01:11:37,990 --> 01:11:35,760
consciousness and there's increasing

2044
01:11:39,750 --> 01:11:38,000
evidence that this may be the way that

2045
01:11:42,229 --> 01:11:39,760
that reality is structured that actually

2046
01:11:43,510 --> 01:11:42,239
consciousness is primary and from that

2047
01:11:46,229 --> 01:11:43,520
you get these

2048
01:11:48,470 --> 01:11:46,239
epiphenomena like matter and energy and

2049
01:11:50,790 --> 01:11:48,480
whatnot

2050
01:11:53,030 --> 01:11:50,800
but if that's the case then it may be

2051
01:11:55,110 --> 01:11:53,040
that um

2052
01:11:57,830 --> 01:11:55,120
all conscious life goes through a

2053
01:12:01,910 --> 01:11:57,840
predictable um you know

2054
01:12:03,270 --> 01:12:01,920
strata of of learning and evolution that

2055
01:12:06,470 --> 01:12:03,280
that

2056
01:12:07,270 --> 01:12:06,480
consciousness evolves as well as biology

2057
01:12:09,510 --> 01:12:07,280
so

2058
01:12:11,510 --> 01:12:09,520
um you know we we look at human

2059
01:12:12,950 --> 01:12:11,520
populations and i think i discussed this

2060
01:12:14,550 --> 01:12:12,960
last time i've certainly discussed it on

2061
01:12:16,630 --> 01:12:14,560
point of convergence

2062
01:12:20,149 --> 01:12:16,640
that um what's what's really fascinating

2063
01:12:21,590 --> 01:12:20,159
with with um models like spiral dynamics

2064
01:12:23,669 --> 01:12:21,600
is that you find

2065
01:12:25,510 --> 01:12:23,679
across across various cultures around

2066
01:12:28,149 --> 01:12:25,520
the world

2067
01:12:30,229 --> 01:12:28,159
there's a predictable kind of march of

2068
01:12:31,910 --> 01:12:30,239
progress that happens that

2069
01:12:34,390 --> 01:12:31,920
you notice this both with individual

2070
01:12:36,470 --> 01:12:34,400
human beings that as we grow and evolve

2071
01:12:39,910 --> 01:12:36,480
from you know infants to children to

2072
01:12:42,790 --> 01:12:39,920
adults we follow very predictable steps

2073
01:12:45,189 --> 01:12:42,800
along the way and so too do an entire

2074
01:12:48,229 --> 01:12:45,199
culture civilizations also follow these

2075
01:12:49,910 --> 01:12:48,239
various steps um not all in one go of

2076
01:12:51,830 --> 01:12:49,920
course even within american culture we

2077
01:12:53,830 --> 01:12:51,840
kind of are an amalgam of

2078
01:12:56,870 --> 01:12:53,840
several different you know large

2079
01:12:58,550 --> 01:12:56,880
components of developmental levels

2080
01:13:00,630 --> 01:12:58,560
but the question is one of the key

2081
01:13:02,790 --> 01:13:00,640
questions is in in this

2082
01:13:03,830 --> 01:13:02,800
subject matter in general is to what

2083
01:13:05,990 --> 01:13:03,840
degree

2084
01:13:08,630 --> 01:13:06,000
is it fair to apply that across the

2085
01:13:11,030 --> 01:13:08,640
cosmos or even across the multiverse if

2086
01:13:14,149 --> 01:13:11,040
that's what reality is that that

2087
01:13:17,510 --> 01:13:14,159
consciousness has some sort of

2088
01:13:19,669 --> 01:13:17,520
ultimate starting place which makes it

2089
01:13:21,830 --> 01:13:19,679
predictable actually that you would go

2090
01:13:23,669 --> 01:13:21,840
through sort of similar steps

2091
01:13:26,310 --> 01:13:23,679
uh and that there would be common ground

2092
01:13:28,709 --> 01:13:26,320
therefore even acro even amongst species

2093
01:13:30,790 --> 01:13:28,719
that are interacting from vast distances

2094
01:13:32,790 --> 01:13:30,800
across our physical universe or

2095
01:13:34,709 --> 01:13:32,800
interdimensionally or whatever that

2096
01:13:37,990 --> 01:13:34,719
their their that that consciousness that

2097
01:13:40,070 --> 01:13:38,000
connection that sort of non-dual oneness

2098
01:13:42,229 --> 01:13:40,080
that's uh sort of the substrate to all

2099
01:13:44,470 --> 01:13:42,239
of reality that that common ground that

2100
01:13:46,790 --> 01:13:44,480
common starting place right

2101
01:13:51,030 --> 01:13:46,800
that entangles all of us

2102
01:13:52,790 --> 01:13:51,040
allows for that communication um i think

2103
01:13:54,950 --> 01:13:52,800
like you say not only the fact that we

2104
01:13:57,430 --> 01:13:54,960
can telepathically communicate with them

2105
01:13:58,950 --> 01:13:57,440
and both ways right it's not just them

2106
01:14:00,390 --> 01:13:58,960
sending thoughts to us but we can send

2107
01:14:02,790 --> 01:14:00,400
thoughts to them but that it's

2108
01:14:05,110 --> 01:14:02,800
meaningful at all that we

2109
01:14:06,950 --> 01:14:05,120
you know there some people even argue uh

2110
01:14:09,030 --> 01:14:06,960
ken wilber's argued that it's a miracle

2111
01:14:10,550 --> 01:14:09,040
even that any two human beings can

2112
01:14:12,470 --> 01:14:10,560
understand each other

2113
01:14:14,790 --> 01:14:12,480
right you know we

2114
01:14:16,390 --> 01:14:14,800
i trust that my vision of green is the

2115
01:14:18,149 --> 01:14:16,400
same as yours we're talking about the

2116
01:14:20,390 --> 01:14:18,159
same sort of thing let alone what a palm

2117
01:14:22,790 --> 01:14:20,400
tree is you know or or what an ant is

2118
01:14:24,310 --> 01:14:22,800
you know or what a backache feels like

2119
01:14:26,070 --> 01:14:24,320
all these things are little miracles

2120
01:14:28,470 --> 01:14:26,080
that you realize we do are even able to

2121
01:14:30,310 --> 01:14:28,480
communicate with each other this way and

2122
01:14:31,350 --> 01:14:30,320
this may be something just

2123
01:14:33,750 --> 01:14:31,360
you know

2124
01:14:35,669 --> 01:14:33,760
core to reality is that there is this

2125
01:14:37,910 --> 01:14:35,679
common ground that this allows for this

2126
01:14:39,910 --> 01:14:37,920
communication

2127
01:14:41,750 --> 01:14:39,920
regardless of how you want to look at it

2128
01:14:44,149 --> 01:14:41,760
you you the data certainly seems to

2129
01:14:46,149 --> 01:14:44,159
suggest that communication can and does

2130
01:14:47,350 --> 01:14:46,159
happen so maybe that makes you lean

2131
01:14:48,950 --> 01:14:47,360
towards

2132
01:14:51,510 --> 01:14:48,960
some connection to the earth even if

2133
01:14:53,350 --> 01:14:51,520
it's an alternate earth or you say no

2134
01:14:55,590 --> 01:14:53,360
there's some sort of common cosmic

2135
01:14:57,830 --> 01:14:55,600
constants to consciousness and that's

2136
01:14:59,510 --> 01:14:57,840
why they may be coming from some other

2137
01:15:01,030 --> 01:14:59,520
galaxy and i can still talk to them and

2138
01:15:03,590 --> 01:15:01,040
understand them and they understand me

2139
01:15:05,189 --> 01:15:03,600
like you say it can be jilted right the

2140
01:15:06,470 --> 01:15:05,199
conversation isn't as smooth as it is

2141
01:15:07,990 --> 01:15:06,480
for the two of us

2142
01:15:09,590 --> 01:15:08,000
just like it wouldn't be as smooth for

2143
01:15:11,189 --> 01:15:09,600
us to talk to someone from some other

2144
01:15:13,270 --> 01:15:11,199
continent right we'd

2145
01:15:15,669 --> 01:15:13,280
have to get past language and cultural

2146
01:15:16,709 --> 01:15:15,679
context but the fact that it happens at

2147
01:15:20,870 --> 01:15:16,719
all

2148
01:15:23,189 --> 01:15:20,880
literature so we have to make sense of

2149
01:15:24,870 --> 01:15:23,199
that no matter how we look at it

2150
01:15:26,630 --> 01:15:24,880
yeah absolutely

2151
01:15:29,030 --> 01:15:26,640
uh it's uh it's a fascinating

2152
01:15:30,709 --> 01:15:29,040
conversation to me uh to think about

2153
01:15:32,070 --> 01:15:30,719
these things and and uh you know one

2154
01:15:33,990 --> 01:15:32,080
thing that came to mind as you were

2155
01:15:37,030 --> 01:15:34,000
talking about the sort of

2156
01:15:39,350 --> 01:15:37,040
the commonality of consciousness that um

2157
01:15:41,350 --> 01:15:39,360
that that whereas the mind may not be

2158
01:15:43,030 --> 01:15:41,360
kind of the epiphenomenon of the brain

2159
01:15:45,830 --> 01:15:43,040
but um but matter may be an

2160
01:15:48,390 --> 01:15:45,840
epiphenomenon of consciousness you know

2161
01:15:50,149 --> 01:15:48,400
it reminded me of theory of mind you

2162
01:15:52,390 --> 01:15:50,159
know with the emergence of

2163
01:15:54,550 --> 01:15:52,400
of uh identity and children and you know

2164
01:15:56,709 --> 01:15:54,560
how we and how when we're people that

2165
01:15:58,550 --> 01:15:56,719
are studying that concept you know very

2166
01:16:00,310 --> 01:15:58,560
much look at it from that angle of well

2167
01:16:02,630 --> 01:16:00,320
this is a developmental stage you know

2168
01:16:04,390 --> 01:16:02,640
they they're they're young and so they

2169
01:16:06,310 --> 01:16:04,400
as they mature

2170
01:16:08,709 --> 01:16:06,320
they're able to their brains mature as

2171
01:16:11,590 --> 01:16:08,719
well and the brain reaches a state where

2172
01:16:13,750 --> 01:16:11,600
where the the mind the sense of self the

2173
01:16:15,030 --> 01:16:13,760
sense of understanding what other cells

2174
01:16:17,270 --> 01:16:15,040
may do

2175
01:16:19,590 --> 01:16:17,280
that emerges but we may have that

2176
01:16:21,110 --> 01:16:19,600
backwards entirely it may be that

2177
01:16:22,950 --> 01:16:21,120
that's not what's happening that that

2178
01:16:25,030 --> 01:16:22,960
it's that it's really there

2179
01:16:28,390 --> 01:16:25,040
uh you know kind of at the base level

2180
01:16:30,229 --> 01:16:28,400
but but as we mature the way in which we

2181
01:16:32,390 --> 01:16:30,239
uh sort of uh manifest that

2182
01:16:34,630 --> 01:16:32,400
consciousness kind of changes

2183
01:16:37,189 --> 01:16:34,640
um anyway just a lot of stuff to to

2184
01:16:39,030 --> 01:16:37,199
think about here with these three pretty

2185
01:16:41,510 --> 01:16:39,040
basic ways of thinking about the

2186
01:16:43,430 --> 01:16:41,520
phenomenon that you can easily see how

2187
01:16:45,270 --> 01:16:43,440
just taking them and then trying to

2188
01:16:48,390 --> 01:16:45,280
incorporate them and and come up with

2189
01:16:51,030 --> 01:16:48,400
some some better fit hypotheses you you

2190
01:16:53,910 --> 01:16:51,040
often are easily landing either on like

2191
01:16:55,669 --> 01:16:53,920
it's all of them uh or it's you know

2192
01:16:58,229 --> 01:16:55,679
it's it's even more than this you know

2193
01:17:00,950 --> 01:16:58,239
so it to me that's exciting and

2194
01:17:04,149 --> 01:17:00,960
invigorating uh to to think about where

2195
01:17:06,470 --> 01:17:04,159
we might be as we move forward in in our

2196
01:17:09,350 --> 01:17:06,480
study of what the phenomenon uh happens

2197
01:17:11,350 --> 01:17:09,360
to be um but as we kind of transition to

2198
01:17:14,149 --> 01:17:11,360
toward the end of the show

2199
01:17:15,990 --> 01:17:14,159
i wanted to uh you know kind of

2200
01:17:17,350 --> 01:17:16,000
give a nod to some of our listeners

2201
01:17:19,750 --> 01:17:17,360
we've had i know we received a few

2202
01:17:21,189 --> 01:17:19,760
questions from folks who were

2203
01:17:22,470 --> 01:17:21,199
enjoying the show

2204
01:17:23,910 --> 01:17:22,480
and one in particular that i think we

2205
01:17:25,990 --> 01:17:23,920
wanted to talk about

2206
01:17:29,110 --> 01:17:26,000
as we conclude and that was i think it

2207
01:17:31,030 --> 01:17:29,120
came from slide nine on uh on twitter

2208
01:17:33,270 --> 01:17:31,040
and and that they had asked uh you know

2209
01:17:35,990 --> 01:17:33,280
kind of how the study of this of the

2210
01:17:37,830 --> 01:17:36,000
phenomenon has impacted us personally

2211
01:17:39,350 --> 01:17:37,840
and uh and i was wondering you know exo

2212
01:17:40,790 --> 01:17:39,360
if you would want to touch on that

2213
01:17:42,550 --> 01:17:40,800
obviously that's a that's a pretty big

2214
01:17:44,390 --> 01:17:42,560
question and it could probably take an

2215
01:17:45,830 --> 01:17:44,400
easily easily another hour or so but uh

2216
01:17:49,030 --> 01:17:45,840
what are some ways in which this has

2217
01:17:51,189 --> 01:17:49,040
impacted you on a personal level

2218
01:17:52,550 --> 01:17:51,199
yeah it's a great question um like you

2219
01:17:55,350 --> 01:17:52,560
said there's so many directions you can

2220
01:17:58,709 --> 01:17:55,360
go i think that

2221
01:18:01,030 --> 01:17:58,719
one uh aspect that jumps out to any of

2222
01:18:04,070 --> 01:18:01,040
us who are really you know invest

2223
01:18:07,510 --> 01:18:05,430
any of us who are invested in this

2224
01:18:09,030 --> 01:18:07,520
recognize that it becomes an obsession

2225
01:18:10,870 --> 01:18:09,040
and that in itself

2226
01:18:12,470 --> 01:18:10,880
is fascinating you know it's not like

2227
01:18:14,070 --> 01:18:12,480
one of several

2228
01:18:15,669 --> 01:18:14,080
uh you know

2229
01:18:17,750 --> 01:18:15,679
pastimes that we're somewhat interested

2230
01:18:20,550 --> 01:18:17,760
in and we check in once in a while

2231
01:18:21,830 --> 01:18:20,560
i mean when i look at the amount of time

2232
01:18:24,790 --> 01:18:21,840
and energy

2233
01:18:25,669 --> 01:18:24,800
i dedicate to this topic alone

2234
01:18:26,390 --> 01:18:25,679
um

2235
01:18:30,950 --> 01:18:26,400
it's

2236
01:18:32,149 --> 01:18:30,960
even heard about people you know on ufo

2237
01:18:33,750 --> 01:18:32,159
twitter

2238
01:18:35,990 --> 01:18:33,760
kind of jokingly but being serious at

2239
01:18:38,709 --> 01:18:36,000
the same time saying they they tried to

2240
01:18:39,990 --> 01:18:38,719
quit it and the withdrawal symptoms were

2241
01:18:41,350 --> 01:18:40,000
too

2242
01:18:44,070 --> 01:18:41,360
you know it's almost like a physical

2243
01:18:45,669 --> 01:18:44,080
withdrawal symptom uh so that in itself

2244
01:18:47,430 --> 01:18:45,679
is fascinating because that of course

2245
01:18:49,030 --> 01:18:47,440
prompts the question why is that the

2246
01:18:50,790 --> 01:18:49,040
case you know is it

2247
01:18:52,950 --> 01:18:50,800
just that we're curious people and this

2248
01:18:54,310 --> 01:18:52,960
is the most curious topic i think

2249
01:18:55,350 --> 01:18:54,320
there's something to that you know i

2250
01:18:56,790 --> 01:18:55,360
think

2251
01:18:58,709 --> 01:18:56,800
something that

2252
01:19:00,550 --> 01:18:58,719
blows the minds of many of us who are

2253
01:19:03,110 --> 01:19:00,560
really invested in this and aware of the

2254
01:19:05,270 --> 01:19:03,120
data how much data there is

2255
01:19:07,110 --> 01:19:05,280
um is why it's not getting more play in

2256
01:19:09,830 --> 01:19:07,120
the mainstream you know that that is

2257
01:19:11,430 --> 01:19:09,840
shocking to us um so that's that's

2258
01:19:12,709 --> 01:19:11,440
something that impacts us personally you

2259
01:19:14,229 --> 01:19:12,719
know is is to

2260
01:19:18,070 --> 01:19:14,239
feel like you're

2261
01:19:20,790 --> 01:19:18,080
you're part of a cult but we are a part

2262
01:19:23,669 --> 01:19:20,800
of a you know a subset of society that

2263
01:19:25,030 --> 01:19:23,679
is not just somewhat but fully invested

2264
01:19:27,110 --> 01:19:25,040
in this topic

2265
01:19:29,910 --> 01:19:27,120
um and and so it creates an interesting

2266
01:19:31,030 --> 01:19:29,920
sense of community and a sense of uh you

2267
01:19:31,910 --> 01:19:31,040
know

2268
01:19:33,430 --> 01:19:31,920
you kind of feel like you're in the

2269
01:19:34,630 --> 01:19:33,440
matrix and everyone else doesn't realize

2270
01:19:36,709 --> 01:19:34,640
it or a lot of people don't kind of

2271
01:19:37,830 --> 01:19:36,719
thing that kind of idea

2272
01:19:39,669 --> 01:19:37,840
um

2273
01:19:43,110 --> 01:19:39,679
i think for me

2274
01:19:44,870 --> 01:19:43,120
part of the reason why it's so um

2275
01:19:47,189 --> 01:19:44,880
i'm so obsessive about it is because

2276
01:19:49,590 --> 01:19:47,199
it's tied very much to my questions

2277
01:19:51,510 --> 01:19:49,600
around ultimate meaning and you know the

2278
01:19:53,189 --> 01:19:51,520
the very fabric of reality why are we

2279
01:19:55,430 --> 01:19:53,199
here how did we get here where are we

2280
01:19:58,229 --> 01:19:55,440
going how we connected to everything

2281
01:20:00,790 --> 01:19:58,239
else is there a purpose all of those

2282
01:20:02,470 --> 01:20:00,800
questions end up you know overlapping

2283
01:20:04,390 --> 01:20:02,480
with the ufo phenomenon and high

2284
01:20:06,550 --> 01:20:04,400
strangeness

2285
01:20:08,229 --> 01:20:06,560
not just because

2286
01:20:09,990 --> 01:20:08,239
there's some overlap naturally but you

2287
01:20:12,390 --> 01:20:10,000
even get really bizarre elements of data

2288
01:20:15,189 --> 01:20:12,400
like deceased relatives showing up with

2289
01:20:15,990 --> 01:20:15,199
grey aliens you know so or

2290
01:20:18,390 --> 01:20:16,000
or

2291
01:20:20,470 --> 01:20:18,400
people who are contactees when they're

2292
01:20:22,550 --> 01:20:20,480
in the presence of these others suddenly

2293
01:20:24,550 --> 01:20:22,560
remembering previous lifetimes or in

2294
01:20:26,790 --> 01:20:24,560
between spaces between lifetimes when

2295
01:20:28,550 --> 01:20:26,800
they knew these others even people who

2296
01:20:30,790 --> 01:20:28,560
have memories of being a grey alien

2297
01:20:32,629 --> 01:20:30,800
either in a previous or parallel kind of

2298
01:20:34,229 --> 01:20:32,639
reality so

2299
01:20:36,310 --> 01:20:34,239
um

2300
01:20:38,310 --> 01:20:36,320
it definitely overlaps with all of the

2301
01:20:40,629 --> 01:20:38,320
big questions and i've always been

2302
01:20:42,950 --> 01:20:40,639
personally invested in those questions

2303
01:20:45,270 --> 01:20:42,960
you know i've always been the one

2304
01:20:46,950 --> 01:20:45,280
my mom even kind of jokes you know i i

2305
01:20:49,030 --> 01:20:46,960
just seemed kind of

2306
01:20:50,229 --> 01:20:49,040
detached in some way socially because i

2307
01:20:52,310 --> 01:20:50,239
was always looking up at the stars and

2308
01:20:54,070 --> 01:20:52,320
trying to make sense of what was reality

2309
01:20:56,310 --> 01:20:54,080
why are we here kind of thing and not

2310
01:20:57,990 --> 01:20:56,320
interested in small talk kind of thing

2311
01:21:00,790 --> 01:20:58,000
um

2312
01:21:02,550 --> 01:21:00,800
i think too for me uh we can maybe get

2313
01:21:05,110 --> 01:21:02,560
into in a future podcast but i've talked

2314
01:21:06,790 --> 01:21:05,120
about it on on point of convergence and

2315
01:21:08,870 --> 01:21:06,800
in a couple different interviews

2316
01:21:11,510 --> 01:21:08,880
had my own personal experience with my

2317
01:21:12,390 --> 01:21:11,520
wife it happened in 2005

2318
01:21:15,750 --> 01:21:12,400
uh

2319
01:21:17,990 --> 01:21:15,760
and and encounter with a humanoid entity

2320
01:21:19,910 --> 01:21:18,000
that you know was one of those

2321
01:21:21,350 --> 01:21:19,920
ontologically shocking personal

2322
01:21:23,990 --> 01:21:21,360
experiences

2323
01:21:25,750 --> 01:21:24,000
that you can't initially make sense of

2324
01:21:27,590 --> 01:21:25,760
um

2325
01:21:29,430 --> 01:21:27,600
i feel closer now to understanding it

2326
01:21:31,750 --> 01:21:29,440
than i ever have before

2327
01:21:32,470 --> 01:21:31,760
because of some recent revelations

2328
01:21:34,149 --> 01:21:32,480
but

2329
01:21:35,430 --> 01:21:34,159
nevertheless when something like that

2330
01:21:37,030 --> 01:21:35,440
happens

2331
01:21:38,870 --> 01:21:37,040
that shakes your very

2332
01:21:40,550 --> 01:21:38,880
core understandings of what reality is

2333
01:21:43,110 --> 01:21:40,560
and what's supposed to happen you know

2334
01:21:45,510 --> 01:21:43,120
is this real life so to speak

2335
01:21:46,870 --> 01:21:45,520
uh it becomes personal you know and so

2336
01:21:48,950 --> 01:21:46,880
many of the people that you encounter on

2337
01:21:50,390 --> 01:21:48,960
ufo twitter and whatnot

2338
01:21:53,270 --> 01:21:50,400
some people end up there because they've

2339
01:21:54,470 --> 01:21:53,280
heard talk on new shows about ufos and

2340
01:21:56,950 --> 01:21:54,480
they think well that's cool tech i want

2341
01:21:58,470 --> 01:21:56,960
to learn about that but a lot of people

2342
01:22:01,350 --> 01:21:58,480
show up because they've had these

2343
01:22:04,070 --> 01:22:01,360
anomalous experiences personally and

2344
01:22:06,310 --> 01:22:04,080
you can't help but be changed by it um

2345
01:22:08,470 --> 01:22:06,320
you you grapple from meaning

2346
01:22:11,669 --> 01:22:08,480
so for me uh that's been a big part of

2347
01:22:14,229 --> 01:22:11,679
it too so it's a it's an overlap of it

2348
01:22:15,990 --> 01:22:14,239
it touches on all the big questions i've

2349
01:22:18,229 --> 01:22:16,000
had my own anomalous experiences that

2350
01:22:19,270 --> 01:22:18,239
i'm trying to make sense of

2351
01:22:21,030 --> 01:22:19,280
and uh

2352
01:22:23,510 --> 01:22:21,040
i really do believe that it's it's the

2353
01:22:26,070 --> 01:22:23,520
most interesting question of our time if

2354
01:22:27,590 --> 01:22:26,080
not all of time and why wouldn't we be

2355
01:22:28,950 --> 01:22:27,600
asking this but what are you what about

2356
01:22:30,709 --> 01:22:28,960
for you what's how is what's your

2357
01:22:33,110 --> 01:22:30,719
personal experience with this when you

2358
01:22:34,310 --> 01:22:33,120
interact with it

2359
01:22:37,270 --> 01:22:34,320
you know for me

2360
01:22:42,149 --> 01:22:39,990
it has kind of re-enchanted the world

2361
01:22:43,910 --> 01:22:42,159
um

2362
01:22:46,229 --> 01:22:43,920
i grew up in a pretty kind of religious

2363
01:22:47,910 --> 01:22:46,239
uh you know environment

2364
01:22:49,830 --> 01:22:47,920
a progressively religious one so a lot

2365
01:22:50,870 --> 01:22:49,840
of topics are all topics are kind of on

2366
01:22:53,350 --> 01:22:50,880
the table

2367
01:22:55,350 --> 01:22:53,360
uh and i was encouraged to study uh you

2368
01:22:56,550 --> 01:22:55,360
know variety of things uh and and look

2369
01:22:57,830 --> 01:22:56,560
at things from a very academic

2370
01:22:58,790 --> 01:22:57,840
perspective

2371
01:23:00,550 --> 01:22:58,800
uh

2372
01:23:01,669 --> 01:23:00,560
you know kind of hinting at what you

2373
01:23:04,070 --> 01:23:01,679
talked about

2374
01:23:06,229 --> 01:23:04,080
the search for ultimate meaning was a a

2375
01:23:08,070 --> 01:23:06,239
pretty common topic in in my house

2376
01:23:10,229 --> 01:23:08,080
growing up you know what does it all

2377
01:23:13,030 --> 01:23:10,239
mean and what are we here for what is

2378
01:23:13,990 --> 01:23:13,040
our purpose uh and looking at the ways

2379
01:23:15,910 --> 01:23:14,000
in which

2380
01:23:18,470 --> 01:23:15,920
communities of people both both

2381
01:23:22,310 --> 01:23:18,480
individuals and communities grapple

2382
01:23:23,910 --> 01:23:22,320
with that challenge you know so

2383
01:23:25,430 --> 01:23:23,920
when looking at it from the lens of

2384
01:23:26,870 --> 01:23:25,440
religion

2385
01:23:29,750 --> 01:23:26,880
you know it was uh

2386
01:23:31,430 --> 01:23:29,760
it it didn't take too long for me to see

2387
01:23:32,310 --> 01:23:31,440
that that was a

2388
01:23:34,149 --> 01:23:32,320
uh

2389
01:23:37,350 --> 01:23:34,159
sort of a narrative layer that was that

2390
01:23:39,350 --> 01:23:37,360
was applied to the human experience and

2391
01:23:41,590 --> 01:23:39,360
it was a kind of a software if you will

2392
01:23:43,350 --> 01:23:41,600
that that that you know the communities

2393
01:23:45,189 --> 01:23:43,360
of believers you know sort of all were

2394
01:23:47,270 --> 01:23:45,199
running the same version of that

2395
01:23:49,270 --> 01:23:47,280
software and as long as you were you

2396
01:23:51,750 --> 01:23:49,280
know kind of using the same

2397
01:23:55,189 --> 01:23:51,760
uh you know version and doing the things

2398
01:23:58,950 --> 01:23:55,199
in a similar way it it provided uh and

2399
01:24:01,110 --> 01:23:58,960
enhanced and uh and solidified that

2400
01:24:02,629 --> 01:24:01,120
ultimate meaning for that community of

2401
01:24:04,870 --> 01:24:02,639
of believers

2402
01:24:06,470 --> 01:24:04,880
right so but as i grew up and and

2403
01:24:07,750 --> 01:24:06,480
studied this further studied religion

2404
01:24:09,590 --> 01:24:07,760
further

2405
01:24:11,990 --> 01:24:09,600
you know i kind of came to a place that

2406
01:24:13,669 --> 01:24:12,000
a lot of people often do that

2407
01:24:16,070 --> 01:24:13,679
where i could really kind of i couldn't

2408
01:24:17,910 --> 01:24:16,080
see the religion without seeing that

2409
01:24:18,790 --> 01:24:17,920
layer you know without

2410
01:24:20,950 --> 01:24:18,800
uh

2411
01:24:22,870 --> 01:24:20,960
being distracted quite frankly by that

2412
01:24:23,830 --> 01:24:22,880
layer so i couldn't know i was no longer

2413
01:24:27,350 --> 01:24:23,840
then

2414
01:24:30,790 --> 01:24:27,360
on the outside

2415
01:24:35,590 --> 01:24:30,800
outside looking in at it and that

2416
01:24:36,629 --> 01:24:35,600
just completely destroyed the uh sort of

2417
01:24:39,430 --> 01:24:36,639
uh

2418
01:24:40,950 --> 01:24:39,440
mystical and chanting powerful qualities

2419
01:24:43,669 --> 01:24:40,960
quite frankly of

2420
01:24:45,510 --> 01:24:43,679
of that entire operating belief system

2421
01:24:47,590 --> 01:24:45,520
and so then i i basically kind of swung

2422
01:24:49,510 --> 01:24:47,600
the other direction to a very hard

2423
01:24:51,270 --> 01:24:49,520
materialist viewpoint

2424
01:24:52,709 --> 01:24:51,280
and had that viewpoint for many many

2425
01:24:54,870 --> 01:24:52,719
years

2426
01:24:57,669 --> 01:24:54,880
but this topic in particular even though

2427
01:24:59,510 --> 01:24:57,679
i've not had uh you know an experience

2428
01:25:00,950 --> 01:24:59,520
that most people would be able to point

2429
01:25:03,270 --> 01:25:00,960
to and say you know he's he's

2430
01:25:04,870 --> 01:25:03,280
experienced the phenomenon

2431
01:25:07,030 --> 01:25:04,880
my experience of the phenomenon is the

2432
01:25:09,430 --> 01:25:07,040
study of it itself right so the

2433
01:25:12,470 --> 01:25:09,440
observation of it itself while i may not

2434
01:25:15,430 --> 01:25:12,480
know what it is i am i like to observe

2435
01:25:17,510 --> 01:25:15,440
and examine what it seems to be doing

2436
01:25:19,510 --> 01:25:17,520
so it's it's it's also kind of playing

2437
01:25:21,350 --> 01:25:19,520
with the the ways in which i which these

2438
01:25:23,830 --> 01:25:21,360
ideas and concepts

2439
01:25:25,510 --> 01:25:23,840
change human behavior you know so there

2440
01:25:27,110 --> 01:25:25,520
are those who

2441
01:25:29,030 --> 01:25:27,120
you know in the scientific world who are

2442
01:25:30,629 --> 01:25:29,040
studying the way things are

2443
01:25:31,910 --> 01:25:30,639
and uh

2444
01:25:33,910 --> 01:25:31,920
if you're an economist you're kind of

2445
01:25:35,910 --> 01:25:33,920
trying to find out what is the best

2446
01:25:37,110 --> 01:25:35,920
economic system for this particular

2447
01:25:40,070 --> 01:25:37,120
situation

2448
01:25:41,830 --> 01:25:40,080
maximizing these certain value variables

2449
01:25:43,430 --> 01:25:41,840
you know for me it's it's not looking at

2450
01:25:45,030 --> 01:25:43,440
that it's looking at almost like what

2451
01:25:47,350 --> 01:25:45,040
fascinates me are the things that that

2452
01:25:49,350 --> 01:25:47,360
are that lay below all of that that like

2453
01:25:50,629 --> 01:25:49,360
that the strange things in human

2454
01:25:53,430 --> 01:25:50,639
experience

2455
01:25:55,030 --> 01:25:53,440
that many of us uh have

2456
01:25:57,189 --> 01:25:55,040
throughout our lives that we just kind

2457
01:25:58,550 --> 01:25:57,199
of like sweep into the corner of the

2458
01:26:00,550 --> 01:25:58,560
kitchen and we don't really think too

2459
01:26:03,189 --> 01:26:00,560
much much about but they actually do

2460
01:26:05,510 --> 01:26:03,199
impact the way in which we live

2461
01:26:08,070 --> 01:26:05,520
and uh that is what fascinates me and

2462
01:26:10,709 --> 01:26:08,080
what what drives me so this topic is

2463
01:26:13,430 --> 01:26:10,719
allowing me to look at the world again

2464
01:26:16,149 --> 01:26:13,440
through these sort of fresh lenses

2465
01:26:18,070 --> 01:26:16,159
and to say hey i you know i don't know

2466
01:26:20,550 --> 01:26:18,080
everything and we don't know everything

2467
01:26:23,430 --> 01:26:20,560
and there is so much more to

2468
01:26:24,709 --> 01:26:23,440
to all of this than we perceive

2469
01:26:26,790 --> 01:26:24,719
and that

2470
01:26:28,550 --> 01:26:26,800
while i think at times can be

2471
01:26:30,629 --> 01:26:28,560
quite daunting you know there are

2472
01:26:32,390 --> 01:26:30,639
certainly moments where i do want to

2473
01:26:33,590 --> 01:26:32,400
walk away from it because it's like you

2474
01:26:34,870 --> 01:26:33,600
know i'd rather just pay the bills you

2475
01:26:36,550 --> 01:26:34,880
know i'd rather not to think about this

2476
01:26:38,229 --> 01:26:36,560
i'd rather just do the

2477
01:26:40,629 --> 01:26:38,239
things that uh you know get me from

2478
01:26:42,470 --> 01:26:40,639
point a to point b uh on the other hand

2479
01:26:44,310 --> 01:26:42,480
it's it's a compulsion as you as you

2480
01:26:46,470 --> 01:26:44,320
sort of say it's something that

2481
01:26:48,149 --> 01:26:46,480
i feel

2482
01:26:50,870 --> 01:26:48,159
i am

2483
01:26:53,750 --> 01:26:50,880
uniquely suited for i have been given a

2484
01:26:54,950 --> 01:26:53,760
set of tools to use that allow me to

2485
01:26:55,750 --> 01:26:54,960
look at this

2486
01:27:01,430 --> 01:26:55,760
uh

2487
01:27:02,950 --> 01:27:01,440
tease out from that observation some

2488
01:27:05,669 --> 01:27:02,960
some helpful conclusions not just for

2489
01:27:07,430 --> 01:27:05,679
myself but for others as well because i

2490
01:27:09,270 --> 01:27:07,440
do have a strong

2491
01:27:11,590 --> 01:27:09,280
sort of love as you know i'm a big ten

2492
01:27:13,830 --> 01:27:11,600
kind of person of a strong love for uh

2493
01:27:15,110 --> 01:27:13,840
for people and i really do want to see

2494
01:27:17,270 --> 01:27:15,120
how we can

2495
01:27:19,110 --> 01:27:17,280
as a as a people you know kind of come

2496
01:27:21,750 --> 01:27:19,120
to a place of better understanding that

2497
01:27:23,030 --> 01:27:21,760
that ideally brings us closer to an

2498
01:27:25,110 --> 01:27:23,040
understanding of who we are as

2499
01:27:27,110 --> 01:27:25,120
individuals but who we are

2500
01:27:28,950 --> 01:27:27,120
with each other

2501
01:27:30,550 --> 01:27:28,960
yeah great points and

2502
01:27:32,229 --> 01:27:30,560
what you said there made me me think

2503
01:27:34,390 --> 01:27:32,239
about the fact that what's interesting

2504
01:27:36,870 --> 01:27:34,400
is again for the general public

2505
01:27:39,430 --> 01:27:36,880
there's often this disconnect between

2506
01:27:40,870 --> 01:27:39,440
notions like religion and spirituality

2507
01:27:42,229 --> 01:27:40,880
and how they make sense of their life

2508
01:27:44,470 --> 01:27:42,239
and their purpose

2509
01:27:46,950 --> 01:27:44,480
and then ufos and ets just seem like a

2510
01:27:48,790 --> 01:27:46,960
completely different topic but for

2511
01:27:50,629 --> 01:27:48,800
people like you and i who have a you

2512
01:27:51,830 --> 01:27:50,639
know divinity and biblical studies

2513
01:27:53,430 --> 01:27:51,840
background

2514
01:27:55,030 --> 01:27:53,440
we look at this and we look at

2515
01:27:56,870 --> 01:27:55,040
encounters that happened in ancient

2516
01:27:58,950 --> 01:27:56,880
human history and we go

2517
01:27:59,990 --> 01:27:58,960
and and at one point in our life like

2518
01:28:01,270 --> 01:28:00,000
you said when you were kind of a flat

2519
01:28:03,510 --> 01:28:01,280
land materialist you might have just

2520
01:28:04,870 --> 01:28:03,520
rejected those notions and said these

2521
01:28:06,310 --> 01:28:04,880
are people just making up stories to

2522
01:28:08,149 --> 01:28:06,320
figure out why you know their crops

2523
01:28:09,510 --> 01:28:08,159
burned or whatever

2524
01:28:11,990 --> 01:28:09,520
but because of

2525
01:28:13,990 --> 01:28:12,000
a greater understanding it it

2526
01:28:15,669 --> 01:28:14,000
reinvigorates those discussions too and

2527
01:28:17,270 --> 01:28:15,679
says wait a second

2528
01:28:18,790 --> 01:28:17,280
despite what you know flatland

2529
01:28:20,390 --> 01:28:18,800
modernists want to claim maybe they

2530
01:28:22,550 --> 01:28:20,400
really were encountering something and

2531
01:28:24,310 --> 01:28:22,560
they weren't just like on ayahuasca or

2532
01:28:25,990 --> 01:28:24,320
something and imagined burning bush

2533
01:28:27,830 --> 01:28:26,000
maybe they really did

2534
01:28:30,790 --> 01:28:27,840
encounter beings and like i said last

2535
01:28:32,550 --> 01:28:30,800
time are wrestling with what it means

2536
01:28:34,310 --> 01:28:32,560
and how to make sense of it and what it

2537
01:28:36,709 --> 01:28:34,320
how they're supposed to respond because

2538
01:28:38,310 --> 01:28:36,719
of that you know and so all of that gets

2539
01:28:40,550 --> 01:28:38,320
wrapped up together that

2540
01:28:42,390 --> 01:28:40,560
this is not just about the future and

2541
01:28:44,870 --> 01:28:42,400
how we may have a relationship or not

2542
01:28:47,270 --> 01:28:44,880
with these others but our very history

2543
01:28:50,310 --> 01:28:47,280
who we are you know that this sudden

2544
01:28:51,110 --> 01:28:50,320
leap in our capacity evolutionarily you

2545
01:28:53,110 --> 01:28:51,120
know

2546
01:28:54,229 --> 01:28:53,120
in in 30 000 years ago or whatever you

2547
01:28:55,830 --> 01:28:54,239
know like

2548
01:28:57,189 --> 01:28:55,840
even mainstream science has a hard time

2549
01:28:59,350 --> 01:28:57,199
understanding why there was a sudden

2550
01:29:01,990 --> 01:28:59,360
leap it looks almost like an attuning

2551
01:29:05,030 --> 01:29:02,000
happened an enhancement right

2552
01:29:07,669 --> 01:29:05,040
who would that be you know um so

2553
01:29:09,510 --> 01:29:07,679
it it partly bridges together

2554
01:29:11,510 --> 01:29:09,520
different categories like the spiritual

2555
01:29:13,990 --> 01:29:11,520
with something like extraterrestrial or

2556
01:29:15,990 --> 01:29:14,000
interdimensional all in other words

2557
01:29:17,669 --> 01:29:16,000
for a long time fairy lore was

2558
01:29:19,669 --> 01:29:17,679
considered kind of silly and you know

2559
01:29:21,830 --> 01:29:19,679
those pure you know those poor

2560
01:29:23,750 --> 01:29:21,840
pre-scientific people right and then

2561
01:29:25,270 --> 01:29:23,760
suddenly when we have interdimensional

2562
01:29:27,110 --> 01:29:25,280
understandings and

2563
01:29:28,629 --> 01:29:27,120
and the idea of ultraterrestrials and

2564
01:29:30,229 --> 01:29:28,639
suddenly that comes back in the picture

2565
01:29:31,510 --> 01:29:30,239
and that's partly what valley did right

2566
01:29:33,590 --> 01:29:31,520
it was like saying

2567
01:29:35,750 --> 01:29:33,600
wait a second there's a lot of overlap

2568
01:29:38,070 --> 01:29:35,760
between these creatures now and how they

2569
01:29:39,750 --> 01:29:38,080
appear and what they do with fairy lore

2570
01:29:41,830 --> 01:29:39,760
what if it's been happening

2571
01:29:44,390 --> 01:29:41,840
all along and we just have had different

2572
01:29:45,830 --> 01:29:44,400
categories to understand it so again

2573
01:29:48,310 --> 01:29:45,840
getting back to the name of the show the

2574
01:29:50,550 --> 01:29:48,320
way we frame these realities is so

2575
01:29:52,950 --> 01:29:50,560
interesting and it's interesting to see

2576
01:29:55,270 --> 01:29:52,960
in real time how we respond to that as

2577
01:29:56,709 --> 01:29:55,280
individuals and as a people

2578
01:29:59,110 --> 01:29:56,719
absolutely

2579
01:30:00,950 --> 01:29:59,120
well this uh is getting us to the end of

2580
01:30:02,390 --> 01:30:00,960
our episode and we do want to keep this

2581
01:30:04,629 --> 01:30:02,400
conversation

2582
01:30:07,990 --> 01:30:04,639
going and we hope that you'll engage

2583
01:30:10,229 --> 01:30:08,000
with us wherever you find our show

2584
01:30:13,669 --> 01:30:10,239
either either on youtube

2585
01:30:15,750 --> 01:30:13,679
at the exo academian youtube channel or

2586
01:30:19,030 --> 01:30:15,760
on your podcast of choice you can find

2587
01:30:20,709 --> 01:30:19,040
us there under liminal frames

2588
01:30:21,590 --> 01:30:20,719
you can reach out to us and connect with

2589
01:30:23,990 --> 01:30:21,600
us

2590
01:30:26,390 --> 01:30:24,000
through our twitter handles uh the show

2591
01:30:29,350 --> 01:30:26,400
handle is at liminal frames uh exo

2592
01:30:31,590 --> 01:30:29,360
academia is at exo academy and i am

2593
01:30:34,310 --> 01:30:31,600
reachable at a waif

2594
01:30:36,310 --> 01:30:34,320
soul and we also have uh other shows as

2595
01:30:37,990 --> 01:30:36,320
well so if you like uh the things that

2596
01:30:40,550 --> 01:30:38,000
you've heard and want to engage with us

2597
01:30:42,629 --> 01:30:40,560
on those platforms you can check out uh

2598
01:30:44,470 --> 01:30:42,639
exo academia and his excellent podcast

2599
01:30:45,990 --> 01:30:44,480
the point of convergence and then you

2600
01:30:48,629 --> 01:30:46,000
can find me

2601
01:30:51,750 --> 01:30:48,639
with my crew at the calling all beings

2602
01:30:53,030 --> 01:30:51,760
channel on youtube and on the podcast of

2603
01:30:54,870 --> 01:30:53,040
your choice

2604
01:30:57,590 --> 01:30:54,880
um so with that being said we will close

2605
01:31:00,070 --> 01:30:57,600
out uh episode two and look forward to

2606
01:31:02,310 --> 01:31:00,080
where this conversation will take us

2607
01:31:04,709 --> 01:31:02,320
so may the quality of our questions

2608
01:31:07,110 --> 01:31:04,719
shaped by a desire for understanding

2609
01:31:08,709 --> 01:31:07,120
enhance our journey of discovery and may

2610
01:31:11,030 --> 01:31:08,719
our travels broaden the sphere of our

2611
01:31:13,990 --> 01:31:11,040
consciousness reminding us that new

2612
01:31:15,270 --> 01:31:14,000
discoveries beget new horizons

2613
01:31:39,930 --> 01:31:15,280
as always